MC Fireside Chats – October 28th, 2026

[00:00:45] Brian Searl: Welcome everybody to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name’s Brian Searl with Insider Perks and Modern Campground. Maybe I’m back in my studio, maybe I’m not, I have no idea. Uh, still trying to hack together my computer. I’ve been doing the show on my phone all summer long, and now it’s snowing outside here in Calgary.

So I’m back up here trying to make this thing work. Uh, so we’ll see how it goes. I have, uh, you know, my camera in front of me that’s working. Apparently my mic’s working, hopefully you guys can hear me. If you can’t hear me, then the show will probably be better with our guests just talking. Uh, but o- otherwise, I’ve got this monitor right in front of me on my phone ’cause I don’t have another one hooked up yet.

So, uh, it’ll be an interesting show today. We’ll have fun, some good conversations, and we’ll see, uh, if anything doesn’t end in disaster on my side. But welcome everybody to, uh, MC Fireside Chats. It’s our week four recurring guests here, uh, for our AI show. We’ve got, uh, Matt Whittemore, who’s, uh, our only sole recurring guest that we have here.

I mean, Sarah’s a new one. She’s gonna be on the show every week for now. But, uh, e- everybody else must be busy going to, I don’t know, OHI, traveling around, doing stuff. You think it’s cold, they would be inside, right Matt? 

[00:01:48] Matt Whitermore: Syracuse is, like, 29 degrees this morning, so-

[00:01:51] Sarah Stahl: What? 

[00:01:52] Brian Searl: I don’t know what 29 degrees means. Like I assume you all are 29 degrees, aren’t you?

[00:01:56] Sarah Stahl: Cold.

[00:01:56] Brian Searl: The rest of the world is different. 

[00:01:58] Sarah Stahl: Everything is cold. 

[00:01:58] Matt Whitermore: Yes. 

[00:01:59] Brian Searl: Yeah. It’s cold up here, too, but, uh… It was yesterday I was g- I was in a race. I know this is a first world problem. I was in a race to fill my hot tub before it got too cold so the water would heat up.

I had to have the, the thing repaired outside. So it’s a first world problem, but I still understand the cold. Snow’s all over the place, so. I don’t get- 

[00:02:19] Sarah Stahl: That time it’s, like, 76 here. 

[00:02:21] Brian Searl: It’s 76. Wait, but you’re in northern Alabama you said before the show started, right? Yeah. 

[00:02:25] Sarah Stahl: Yes, I don’t have that problem.

[00:02:27] Brian Searl: Yeah, but there’s pros and cons to both, let’s be clear. Like, I like going snowshoeing in the winter. Uh, Calgary is the sunniest major city in North America, I think. Maybe Canada. Oh.

[00:02:37] Sarah Stahl: It’s not bad.

[00:02:37] Brian Searl: Uh, so we have blue skies and sunshine all winter. It’s not like the gray. Like I grew up in Ohio- Yeah … it was terrible and gray and miserable, and you’re like, “Uh, I don’t know if I like this.”

Uh, I like this, so I’m happy. Um, but in- please introduce yourself, Sarah 

[00:02:53] Sarah Stahl: Yeah. So my name’s already on the screen. Um, I’m a hospitality marketing strategist. That’s my entire thing. Um, real quick, over the past decade, I’ve worked in tourism, a startup treehouse resort, and inside of an OTA, so I’ve seen just about every angle of the industry that one can see.

Um, and so now I’m working independently to help outdoor hospitality operators grow their direct demand two ways. So one of the ways is through creative marketing systems, and the other is cleaning up your tech systems. Absolutely love what I get to do, and happy to be here with you guys today. 

[00:03:29] Brian Searl: Awesome.

Well, thank you guys for, thank you for being here. I appreciate it. Like, I, I’m, I’m really interested in, I think, your unique take on the industry coming from that perspective. We’ve got a lot of, you know… I, I have a background in campground and RV park marketing, right? I’m trying to run away from it as fast as I can ’cause AI’s gonna eat it all.

But and then we’ve got really great, some really great other companies who have been on here who also do marketing in the space. Uh, but I’m interested to hear a perspective of, you know, the people who have been doing it from the vacation rental side, have a different perspective on things, especially in the, you know, working in all the worlds that you just said.

Uh, so interested to, to kind of grow and learn from you and see what your perspective is on things. Um, Matt, I don’t think I gave you a chance to introduce yourself before I moved on and called Sarah only recurring- 

[00:04:07] Matt Whitermore: That’s okay … 

[00:04:08] Brian Searl: so go ahead, man. 

[00:04:08] Matt Whitermore: Nobody needs to know. Uh, no, Matt Whittemore, managing director at Travo.

Um, we are a commercial real estate AI shop. Uh, got our hands in a bunch of different things. We are scaling up a commercial real estate brokerage, and I’ve had a lot of fun over the last few months working on, uh, site selection work, acquisitions work, uh, both in the RV and campground space, but also, uh, for glamping developers.

That’s, that’s some of the work I’ve had the most fun doing over the last few months is helping, helping, uh, some glamping developers, uh, get their hands on some, some old, uh, campgrounds that need a, need a new life and, and need, need some new life, you know, uh, breathed into them and maybe some raw land to develop into, uh, glamping resorts and outdoor lodging concepts of all types.

So it’s been a lot of fun. 

[00:05:03] Brian Searl: Also, it’s your first month at this job too now. You’re not gonna tell us what you do still? It’s still south and secret, or? 

[00:05:09] Matt Whitermore: So we, that’s exactly what we do. We, we’re, uh, we’re an AI native commercial real estate brokerage. And really the focus has been, uh, working for acquirers and buyers and users of space, um, to find the right space for them, whether it’s to, whether it’s an existing business or land to develop or an old, a tired, old campground to reimagine into something, a new concept.

Um, so that’s it. We, we, uh, we represent, um, buyers and developers and use AI to, to help them get their hands on, uh, the space and the, the land that they need to get their hands on to grow their businesses. 

[00:05:51] Brian Searl: Awesome. Well, hope you continue to be successful and keep growing the company.

[00:05:54] Matt Whitermore: Yes.

[00:05:55] Brian Searl: Uh, last but not least, Sherise, please introduce yourself.

[00:05:59] Sherise Gumbs: Hi, I’m Sherise. Um, I spent the past 10 years working in tech, securing some of the top companies in the United States and Amer- and, um, Canada. And now I’m excited to find CampGuide, which is a campground management software that just does things a lot differently and uses a lot of different tools just based on all the years I’ve spent with these companies and securing billions of dollars in funds just to see how we can make managing a campground a little bit better.

[00:06:31] Brian Searl: All right, Sherise, I’m gonna start off on maybe a hard question, okay? 

[00:06:34] Sherise Gumbs: Okay, go for it. 

[00:06:35] Brian Searl: Everybody says they have campground management software. Why do we care? I know you’re gonna hit that out of the park, so that’s why I’m asking it to you. 

[00:06:45] Sherise Gumbs: I think there’s a difference between campground management software and a system.

So I think CampGuide is way more of a system of how you manage your campground, where it’s like, it’s not just about making those reservations, it’s about all of those little details in the way that you run your campground. Uh, earlier today we were talking a little bit about marketing and how can we even partner with influencers.

Well, in CampGuide, there’s also a part where you can say exactly how ma- how many stays these influencers would get for free. You can set comp codes that are based on s- very, very specific t- um, very specific amounts, exactly how many times they can stay, how m- what recurring stays are. “Okay, well, first stay you get y- you can have this m- amount that you pay. Second stay is this much.” And then you can also put, like, things like your maximum amount of, of, um,

You can say like the maximum amount of revenue that’s put on that. So like, “Okay, we’re not gonna spend this much more on influencers.” And you can also give a login specifically to your marketing team who can make their own comp code as well, and you can set the limits on that as well. So that’s just like one very tiny feature in the thousands of features available in CampGuide.

[00:08:03] Brian Searl: Sarah, go ahead please. 

[00:08:05] Sarah Stahl: So I … No, I was just gonna say, um, if I’m understanding this correctly, I’m really interested because one of the things that I ran into using a PMS system at Retreat is most property management systems are not built for operations. That was what I learned the hard way even trying to like change to a different system.

So it sounds like from what you’re saying you have a lot of operational aspects built in. Uh, okay, that’s really interesting. 

[00:08:32] Brian Searl: Yeah, they’re basically built to make money is what they are, right?

[00:08:35] Sherise Gumbs: Yes.

[00:08:35] Brian Searl: Like they’re not built to … And then-

[00:08:37] Sherise Gumbs: They’re just made to make money.

[00:08:37] Brian Searl: Okay. Well, I mean, you o- obviously make money.

I’m sure CampGuide’s built that way too, right? But, but like we … i’ve had these conversations with multiple people before. It’s like we- we’re gonna build the booking engine ’cause we ma- make b- make money off the charge per reservation, or we’re gonna build the financial payment system out because we take a percentage of Stripe or whatever it is, right?

Uh, and then we’re gonna add the other features that we need, but we’re only gonna do it because we’ve got a roadmap that’s 10,000 miles long and because 100 people have asked us for it, we’re gonna build the cheapest possible quickest thing we can to just check a box and say we’ve done it. Is that fair?

On a macro scale there are micro people doing it better. 

[00:09:10] Sarah Stahl: Yeah, because I think the issue and, um, I think Sherise- sounds like you could talk to this really well, is that most people building PMSs, um, I would say the last iteration I’m seeing a lot more happening now with, um, AI that people are s- people in the industry are actually starting to build solutions.

But previously most of the big market PMSs, they weren’t even in the industry. They didn’t know the operational issues that they had to build for the future for. And then as, as properties are growing and they’re running into all these issues, that’s why to your point, Brian, there’s a list 10 years long because they’re finding out about it from owners after the fact

[00:09:57] Brian Searl: Matt, what do you think? Go, go ahead, Sherise, please. I’m sorry.

[00:10:00] Sherise Gumbs: No, go, go ahead.

[00:10:01] Brian Searl: There was just a delay. 

[00:10:02] Sherise Gumbs: Matt, since I didn’t talk- 

[00:10:02] Brian Searl: I, I didn’t know if you were gonna add an answer prep, so I was like, “All right, well, Matt, maybe he’s got something. He’s always willing to chat.” 

[00:10:08] Matt Whitermore: Yeah, so- 

[00:10:08] Brian Searl: Go ahead, Matt 

[00:10:11] Matt Whitermore: I’ll jump in. Um, I am just like, I would consider myself kind of anti-SaaS. I mean, I, I’m, I’m friendly. I, I’m in full support. I wish you the best success. Um, you know, buying software is one of my least favorite things to do in the world. It’s always the most frustrating process. And then, right, you get sold a bill of goods by the software salesperson, and then you get in and you get hands-on, and all the things that you were promised in the sales process are not real.

Um, you know, I think the way of the future is, is software that’s built for AI agents, um, more so than humans. And right, even like I’m a real, I’m a real estate guy through and through, like I’m real estate brained, which is another way of saying like, not very intelligent. Um, and right, I’m not, I don’t have a technical background.

I’ve just, what I’ve gotten struck with the bug of becoming just to an unhealthy level obsessed with AI. And you know, I, what I’m always looking for is where’s the MCP, where’s the API? I don’t want to touch your software, I just want Claude to run your software. I want Codex to run your software. I want Grok Bot or Cursor right to whatever I’m in, I want that to run the software, and I just want to talk to my agent and, and know that my agent is gonna be able to get the data in and out.

And, you know, a lot of, a lot of these PMS providers in the industry have APIs, but like even just the, the process of like getting the right endpoints and getting the right grants, like I won’t name the, I won’t name the software provider, but it took two months just to get the right grants of submitting tickets and, and getting responses.

[00:12:04] Brian Searl: Oh, we’re dealing, we’re dealing with one right now, Matt. Like we, like we’ve been building an integration with, I won’t name them either, right? We’ve been building an integration with them for a year, and all of a sudden they redid their API rules and they’re like, “Oh, weeks to a couple months until we get back to you.”

What are you talking about? I’ve got my whole thing built on top of your platform. I’ve been talking to you for a year. 

[00:12:22] Matt Whitermore: Right. 

[00:12:23] Brian Searl: Uh, so it, yeah, like, I want you to finish, Matt, in a second, but like I under-

[00:12:26] Matt Whitermore: Yeah …

[00:12:26] Brian Searl: I understand, I think what you’re saying and, and what I’m gonna add to that is like, it’s, it’s really interesting to me to see how the evolution of AI is impacting decision-making.

Mm. I think, and I don’t know and have facts, right? But I think that what we’re seeing is a panic reaction of I had an open API before and now I can’t have an open API, or I don’t think I can because everybody and their brother’s hooking it up to MCPs, and it used to have read, write access, and I’d hand out one key and then you can do everything, and now people are talking to their Claude and it’s going off the rails costing 10,000 different support tickets for me a minute.

So I’m gonna lock down this access, but I’m gonna over lock it down and compensate to the other side of it Which is gonna stop the good people who wanna develop stuff, and I’m not saying I’m good or bad, that’s not for me to say, right? But the people who are trying to build quality integrations is gonna impair that, and then there’s the school of thought of, “Well, we’ll just lock it down and develop everything in-house,” which is what some of them are doing too.

Which to, to the– Doesn’t mean they’re bad, right?

[00:13:27] Matt Whitermore: Right.

[00:13:28] Brian Searl: So I think it’s an interesting overreaction and underreaction. It’s the same thing with, like, if you go back and look at the bots, I posted about this on LinkedIn the other day. We’ve done studies on this for all our data collection. Like, the amount of reservation systems providers that block almost every bot, including AI and ChatGPT and Claude, from coming to your website or coming, yeah, coming to your website.

Obviously, they don’t have the, the technology and fun- and I don’t know if people know this, right? But you go to Claude and you say, “Check m- check, uh, you know, what’s the best place to camp in Austin, Texas that’s under $70?” It cannot go to your website, open up Campspot, Newbook, Staylist, pick your reservation system, right?

CampGuide, whatever, right? It can’t open those things up and enter the date picker and click Search and go by and read the JavaScript and extract all your information for your rates. It cannot, it’s not capable of doing that. Manus can, Claude Code can, but not the stuff that most of the consumers are building every day.

[00:14:21] Matt Whitermore: Right.

[00:14:22] Brian Searl: And, and so the– That’s interesting too, is the reaction of the reservation systems to just lock this stuff down, and I get it that they need to stop bad bots, but nobody’s really seem- seeming to think this through past, like, tomorrow. 

[00:14:35] Matt Whitermore: Right. And I, I will say our, our industry is, is probably better than most, right?

I, I kind of straddle the, the worlds of commercial real estate and, and outdoor hospitality, and it’s so much worse in commercial real estate. Like, the, the, the software providers are litigious, right? They, they sue their own customers for misuse. They, they leverage, right, their, their fine print against you and, and, and jack up your rates, you know, based on your activity and, and just, you know, send you, like, scary, scary legalese letters.

You know, they put you on your heels and it’s, it’s an adversarial relationship more than it is a customer relationship. And same thing, they block all the bots, um, which is insane to me, right? Like, they’re very protective and defensive over their data, and I think they, they just assume of, “Oh, you’re, you’re using a bot to scrape our data, and you’re gonna go misuse our data, and you’re gonna, you’re gonna-” 

[00:15:37] Brian Searl: But it’s publicly available data, which is the silly part.

Like, I get the behind-

[00:15:40] Matt Whitermore: Right …

[00:15:40] Brian Searl: the login stuff. That’s protected, right? 

[00:15:42] Matt Whitermore: Yeah. It’s so funny that there’s been, there’s been lawsuits about that of, of even private users and, and operators suing each other in our industry. Won’t name those either, but the, the, the court, the court decided that y- nothing, no commercial real estate, no public record derived data is proprietary, so- 

[00:16:03] Sarah Stahl: Mm-hmm. Mm … 

[00:16:04] Matt Whitermore: get out of my courtroom. Um, so just thought that was super interesting and You know, the one thing, my, my big thing, I think even in our industry, and I think it’s just inherently a problem with the SaaS model, is I just always feel that there’s a culture of, uh, closing the ticket and not solving the problem.

[00:16:29] Sarah Stahl: Mm.

[00:16:29] Matt Whitermore: I don’t know if anybody else feels that, that, right? Your, your engaged- 

[00:16:32] Brian Searl: I mean, I felt that going to my doctor for like 15 years, but that’s another discussion. Like, here’s a pill. 

[00:16:38] Matt Whitermore: Right, like it’s like- 

[00:16:39] Brian Searl: But anyway, we won’t go off that on that tangent, but continue 

[00:16:41] Matt Whitermore: Yeah. Right? Like, you submit a ticket. I hate that, right?

Like, let me just call somebody. If I can’t call somebody and talk to a human-

[00:16:47] Sarah Stahl: Mm-hmm …

[00:16:47] Matt Whitermore: or even I’d be, I’d be thrilled to talk to a voice agent at this point, right? Let me talk to somebody or, or an agent that can solve my problem, but not leave a message or, or getting directed via a recorded message to go submit a ticket on the website, and then it’s a week to hear back from the ticket, and right?

It’s just the, the vibes are so much from… And it, it’s not the person’s fault, right? They’re, they’re, uh, cu- they’re in customer success, right? They’re in an early career role. They’re, right, they don’t have- 

[00:17:20] Brian Searl: They’re doing their job. The problem is their job has been- 

[00:17:23] Matt Whitermore: True. They’re doing their job … 

[00:17:23] Brian Searl: too narrowly defined most of the time-

[00:17:25] Matt Whitermore: Right

[00:17:25] Brian Searl: for what their skillset is.

[00:17:27] Matt Whitermore: Right.

[00:17:27] Brian Searl: Or could be. 

[00:17:28] Matt Whitermore: But it’s, it’s so much of, “Hey, how do I close this ticket?” And not necessarily, “How do I solve this customer’s problem?” And especially today, like, really anything should be possible. It doesn’t, it shouldn’t be the, the, the culture of, “Well, I need 1,000 requests are, that are similar as to this to consider building out that new feature or fixing that bug or whatever.”

Like- Software development is so, uh, easy and fast now that one customer having a problem should be enough to consider making a change-

[00:18:08] Sarah Stahl: Hmm …

[00:18:08] Matt Whitermore: if it, if it makes sense. Don’t get me wrong, there’s some customers out there that are sub- submitting tickets for things that are completely off the rails and don’t make sense, I’m sure. So not to- 

[00:18:18] Brian Searl: I wanna give Cherie a chance to weigh in on this-

[00:18:20] Matt Whitermore: Yeah, please …

[00:18:21] Brian Searl: ’cause I wanna, I wanna… And here’s my opinion before Sherise’s this, right? I think good software development is still really hard even with AI. It’s not. I think you can just move faster. 

I think generally you can, yeah, you can mock up anything and make something pretty quick.

You’re right. So I don’t know, I’m not sure that that’s what you meant, Matt. I’m not trying to, like, undercut you, right? But those are-

[00:18:41] Matt Whitermore: No, for sure …

[00:18:41] Brian Searl: just to clarify those two things. 

[00:18:42] Matt Whitermore: Agreed. 

[00:18:44] Sherise Gumbs: Yeah. I think that right now we’re in a space where it’s easier to plan exactly what you’re trying to develop but to have something that is supported and secure.

So a little bit of background, for many years I worked in cybersecurity so being with that and then seeing AI and seeing how AI is being used in many cases, a lot of times we are not taking into account the security side of that but I agree. So I spent the past few months using a lot of different campground management tools.

There are some tools, I’m not gonna call any names, but even to just run your own repor- your, change your rates for your campground you have to download a report to make the changes into a CSV, re-upload the report and I j- I just felt like- 

[00:19:26] Brian Searl: Really? 

[00:19:27] Sherise Gumbs: Yes.

[00:19:27] Brian Searl: No.

[00:19:28] Sherise Gumbs: One of the largest tools. And that’s-

[00:19:30] Brian Searl: Interesting

[00:19:31] Sherise Gumbs: all I need. Um, and to change things like cancellation policies you have to c- put a support ticket in. A lot of these tools they have five to seven business day windows where they get back to you so you, it’ll be like a week or two before you even hear back to change the rates for your campground and I, I just don’t think that’s quite fair.

And then to your point earlier about, um, being able to connect your campground to your MCP of choice, a lot of them lock that down. I don’t agree. CampGuide’s just, I don’t know, it’s … We have our own MCP, you can connect it to Cloud. I said, tell campground owners, “Here’s what you could do. We have Alexa integration so you can ask Alexa, ‘Hey, how many people are coming into my campground today?’

and it’ll tell you. ‘Hey, is this site open?’ It’ll tell you.” And I think that a lot of these- Software, I think j- as we said earlier, it’s based on what can make the money, what are people overwhelmingly saying, “I’m gonna switch the, my software for?” It’s not, how can I make the user experience the best that it can be? But rather how can 

[00:20:35] Brian Searl: I- I think you hit the, I think you hit the nail on the head with something though, right? It’s, it’s what am I gonna switch my software for? And I think one of the roots of the problems, and you can talk about this maybe Sarah, from the vacation rental side or from the glamping resorts you work with, but I, I’m, I hear it all the time from campgrounds.

Matt, you probably heard it when you worked at Unhitched. Uh, I think the problem is, is our, the people in this industry who are buying the software have their expectations set like way down there somewhere and have no idea what’s possible today. 

[00:21:06] Sarah Stahl: That, that’s a, that’s a big conversation because that’s actually what’s coming.

I just, um, went to VRMA in Nashville and heard Jamie Lane talk about, um, some of the data from the last year and what’s happening in the outdoor industry over… the short-term rental industry overall. And, uh, a lot of the issues are tied, are tied in half or cut in half between operators who n- understand and know that they’re running a business and do so, and then operators who are like, “Let me just try to make some money,” and don’t really know hospitality, don’t know the business, um, and just start picking, like, the cheapest tools, if you will, right?

So then it becomes a, a price point thing. Um, but operationally speaking, I always go back to the operations because to me, that’s what AI has allowed us to do a lot more easy than just a couple of years ago, is, you know… I, I actually tried. We used, um… And I will name names. I, I’m, I’m com- I’m okay with that ’cause I’m independent.

I can do that. So we used, uh, Hostway at, um, Virtuari, and I actually loved it. It’s super use- user-friendly compared to some of the other ones. But it did not help us with operations. So, you know, there were some things we were trying to do to keep better tabs of what was happening, um, on the maintenance side, on the housekeeping side, but we had to use Turnout, right?

So then we had this other, um, piece of software. And then, you know, we were trying to run CRM systems so that we could focus on both direct booking and return gue- w- earning the return guest. And then we had to have another piece of software for that. So thankfully, the reason why I stuck with them when, um, I actually sat through five different demos for five different PMSs as we were considering changing, and the reason why I stuck with them is because they had the open API at the time.

So all the other f- well, all the other five I sat through, the… my top question was, “Do you have an, do you have an API capability?” And they all said no. So it sounds like a lot of them have heard the market and have started to switch and, like, offer that. But to me, that’s table stakes to be able to take control of your operations because if you have a PMS that locks up your operations and then you can’t connect anything to see, that’s…

I, I don’t understand how people are functioning that way. 

[00:23:28] Brian Searl: Which is almost every reservation system in our space. Honestly, it is … 

[00:23:34] Sarah Stahl: that, that’s why I’m really excited. So I think I’ve heard from three different folks in our space in the last month who are in the industry and building their own solution because they’re like, “Well, with AI, I can do this now,” right?

“And I don’t have to be so reliant.” Um, because I, I mean, I’m just simple and plain the way I think about things, and SaaS stands for service, and like everything we’ve talked about, um, it does not, it, it, none of it’s service Uh, not to the customer anyway, and so, um, I’m really curious to see what’s happening with these folks who are in the industry building these things who understand, understands operations.

[00:24:20] Brian Searl: Well, that’s what I mean, that’s what I mean when I say the expectation of the campground owner, right? I- i- is I think that the, the normal campground owner, call it 90% of the campground owners out there, right, are not asking these companies for APIs, even with AI. And so I think they can get away with that. The normal campground- 

[00:24:38] Sarah Stahl: So are they assuming that the operational piece just comes with the PMS? 

[00:24:43] Brian Searl: I, I’m not a campground owner. Matt, tell m- t- you’re not a campground owner e- either. You were, but, like, you worked for Unhitched. Do you have more insight into that? 

[00:24:50] Matt Whitermore: Um, I’ve always kind of disagreed with the, for the most part, like PMS as, as a, as a name and qualification for these things, right?

[00:25:02] Sarah Stahl: Hmm.

[00:25:02] Matt Whitermore: It’s like different, coming from the real estate world, like where you have actual property management software, right? I, I think they’re coming around for sure. Um- 

[00:25:13] Sarah Stahl: Hmm … 

[00:25:13] Matt Whitermore: but I, I think there’s a lot to be desired, you know? It’s, it’s, I struggle with it because maybe I’m a little bit of a pessimist, maybe I’m a little bit negative, right?

It’s a, such a small, niche-y little industry, right? The… I’d love to hear, Sherise, your outlook on this- 

[00:25:31] Sarah Stahl: Mm-hmm … 

[00:25:31] Matt Whitermore: as a founder in the space, right? I talk to a lot of people about, “Oh, I’m thinking about starting up this thing and selling it into the…” Selling it in, honestly, Brian, well, all of you would, would have good input on this, but I’ve told people or maybe even talked some people out of it, of I want, you know, they wanna be a vendor in the outdoor hospitality space, and they wanna sell into campground owners and RV park owners, and I’m like, “Good luck.”

Like, wonderful people we have in this industry. Terrific, awesome people, but they’re cheap. They don’t wanna buy anything from you. Most of them don’t have budget, right? M- most campgrounds are small, low revenue. Um, so maybe I’m a little bit overly pessimistic about it. Um, so I’ve always looked at-

[00:26:17] Sarah Stahl: Hmm …

[00:26:17] Matt Whitermore: like, oh, w- wouldn’t it make sense for, for one of these, uh, providers to, like, scale up into greater hospitality and, and go after, like, a larger, you know, total addressable market?

Um, I don’t know. It’s a, I, I go back and forth with, with kinda my outlook on the space and, uh- 

[00:26:40] Brian Searl: I mean, I’ve been told that before, right? Like, not, like, we’re obviously not doing a booking engine or a PMS. Uh, no plans to do so right now. Um, you know, I’ve been told the same thing, like, like with my marketing or with my AI chatbots or phone calls.

Like, scale it up, go to other industries, and maybe that ends up being the answer, but I’ve been here for 16 years and I feel like … I think it’s an expectations thing, Matt. I really do. 

[00:27:03] Matt Whitermore: Yeah. 

[00:27:03] Brian Searl: Like, I, I think it’s a, I don’t know that there’s another way to operate my campground because this is the way I’ve done it for 40, 50 years, and that doesn’t mean just PMS software, right?

That means labor or hospitality or efficiencies-

[00:27:15] Matt Whitermore: Yeah …

[00:27:15] Brian Searl: or better Wi-Fi systems or all the things that could save you money in other places or show you that there’s more mo- revenue to be made in other places that they just don’t know exists, and nobody is presenting them with this. Nobody is truly innovating, and I told Sherise this, uh, you know, in a, in a private chat.

Like, I’m not gonna say what you said, Sherise, back, right? But what I said to her was that, um, uh, you know, the expectations of the people here are just… I lost my train of thought. Anyway, whatever. You go to Sherise. Go to Sherise. I lo- I lost my train of thought what I was saying. 

[00:27:48] Sherise Gumbs: And I think getting to the, the core point of the expectation right now is, number one, in this space, it’s a lot of private equity-owned businesses.

These aren’t businesses like the PMS systems. They’re not owned by regular people who are interested in just making- 

[00:28:04] Brian Searl: Anymore. Yep. They were when they started, but anymore, yep. 

[00:28:08] Sherise Gumbs: And now because of that, it’s just about how can we make the most money versus it being just about let’s make the experience better.

And then number two, there’s the expectation now that software should be free because a lot of these, uh, campground owners, they’re paying just based on, like, a $5 to $8 booking fee on each campground booking versus it actually just being something they’re paying for monthly and then also when, let’s say, they need a perk website, now they tr- they’re paying another vendor, and then they’re doing this with another vendor, and it all adds up, but it’s not something that’s one price at once.

So because of that, they think of it like, “Oh, this thing’s so cheap.” They’re not looking at what is the report showing that I paid them? What is the difference in my… Am I able to upsell people? Like, with us, each person who stays at the campground gets this, um, stay pass. They can log in. They can say, “Oh, they offer this.

There’s this event. Let me go attend that. Let me go buy this tour.” It’s all part of their stay. They can message the front desk. It’s not about making the experience better for these campers for a lot of these software companies. It’s more so about how can I make the most money? 

[00:29:21] Brian Searl: Maybe. I mean, we can’t, like, I don’t wanna shove that down…

Like, I know there are some good people who work. On a macro level, I don’t disagree with you, okay? I’m not trying to censor myself. Yeah. I’m just saying on a macro level, I, I agree with you. On a micro level, I think there are some really good people who work for these companies who really do care.

Sometimes their hands are just tied, though. 

[00:29:39] Matt Whitermore: Totally. 

[00:29:40] Sherise Gumbs: I completely agree with that 

[00:29:43] Brian Searl: But then how do we solve that problem? Like I s- I still think it’s an expectations gap. I still think it comes back to the owner saying, “I don’t just want a…” Let’s just pick a housekeeping module, right? Or a time tracker or whatever it is, or a maintenance request form.

“I don’t just want the thing that you can throw together and make me ha- make me, you know, check a box and say I’m happy. I know what’s possible. I’ve done research with three or four other vendors that are outside the industry and seen the capabilities that can be built if someone puts time and attention and care into it, and I get that you’re not gonna be the dedicated time tracker, the best of the best.

You’re not gonna be the dedicated housekeeping, the best of the best. But if you could get 50% of the way there.” But those things aren’t being asked, or if they are being asked, to Matt’s point earlier in the show, they’re being promised and never delivered. “Do you offer holograms so I can talk to people on my front?”

“Yeah, yeah, we got that. Just sign up. Yeah.” Right? 

[00:30:39] Sarah Stahl: Yeah. I just was asked to submit a quote on this topic and about, like, what should you ask your, um, SaaS provider, you know, before making the switch? And the question is, yeah, who, who am I gonna talk to at day 91? Um, I wanna talk to that person right now and, uh…

Or not right now, but, like, you know, I wanna talk to that person next. Set up a time, and then I want that person to be able to walk me through, um, a successful dashboard of a customer and not just see a demo, ’cause a demo is a brochure. Um, a demo, it– to your point, Brian, it tells you all the pretty things that you really wanna see and hear.

Um, it doesn’t help you understand. So I think the, um, software companies who actually keep service as part of their ecosystem and not just, like, under a SaaS umbrella will be really important, and if they could talk to actual people and know who those people are. And this, this to me, if we look out bigger, I think this is what’s happening to our culture because of AI.

We actually want to know who we’re working with more specifically more than ever, regardless of what industry or business that you’re in. 

[00:31:53] Brian Searl: Yeah, you would hope it would move that way. I think, I think we’ve seen evidence of that, right? But you would hope it would move that way.

[00:31:57] Sarah Stahl: I think we are seeing evidence of that, yeah.

[00:31:59] Brian Searl: Yeah.

We’re all just gonna look at each other and wait for me to talk and ask a question? 

[00:32:08] Sarah Stahl: That’s the plan, right? I thought that that’s what we planned. No? 

[00:32:11] Brian Searl: That’s true. I don’t plan anything with this show. I just show up and talk to people. Like, I, yeah, I don’t, I don’t know. Like, it boggles my mind too, like, ’cause I’ve, I’ve been in this industry for 16 years, and we started off, like I said, doing, you know, the basics of marketing, review responses, and social media, and stuff like that back in 2010 working for parks.

And the amount of people back then who just … And, and some of it is you’re busy. I get that. And some of it is you got into the campground industry to get away from technology. Understandable. So nobody, when I say these things, I’m not picking on people or saying that they’re wrong for their way of thinking, right?

But this is, it goes back to 2010, w- long before then, right? But for me, it goes back to 2010 in the aspect of, you know, we sure we know we maybe need social media posting, but we have no idea what network to post on, or what we should post, or whoever, so sure, we’ll just hire you, or we’ll hire a work camper, or we’ll hire somebody.

Just get us content up there so we can check the box and get it done. And then they never ask the question, just like they’re not asking the PMS provider today. They never ask the question to me, “What content are you publishing? How do you know it’s the right audience? How do you know it’s resonating with people?

What are the results you’re getting from people? Is it actually working? Is it driving more business? Am I just…” All those things, right? They don’t ask those questions, and arguably they don’t have time to or didn’t pre-AI. Maybe they have more time now with the ability for them to be dangerous by asking AI is, is Brian or whoever full of shit, right?

Maybe they have that ability now. Um, but that’s traced through the last 16 years with everything we’ve tried to develop ’cause I always try to push the boundaries of, “Listen, you should be paying attention to the analytics and your ROI, and forget about your number of clicks. It just matters, like the click-through rate matters more ’cause that shows you’re targeting your audience, and then what do they do once they get to your website?

And do you care if they’re actually coming to your website, or do you care if it’s money in your pocket?” So but I, I still have found a cold, not a cold reception, but a An un- I, I don’t even want to say an unwillingness. I don’t know what the word is, right? An in… I, I, I don’t, I don’t know what the word is, right?

Um- There, is, is there a word? I’m, I’m think- I’m not thinking of it right, but the idea is there … 

[00:34:22] Sarah Stahl: so you asked, you asked a big question about, like, how do you solve that, right? Like, that’s not something that we’re gonna just, like, come out with a sentence for right now. But, um, what I’m hearing from all of you is that it’s a educational piece that’s lacking.

Um, so, you know, and then, and then y- we can argue about who’s responsible for that, right? Is it the, the vendor who’s providing the service? Like-

[00:34:49] Brian Searl: No, I think it’s the associations. Continue. I j- I just think it’s the associations that- 

[00:34:52] Sarah Stahl: Associations is interesting. Um, so that was actually a thought I had earlier ’cause I just came from VRMA where we had a tremendous amount of education.

Um, you know, there was 2,000 people from the short-term rental industry there. So that was one of my questions is what’s happening on the campground side in terms of education? 

[00:35:14] Brian Searl: Well, Matt, what do you think? You’ve been to, uh, I think, Sherise, you’re going to OHCE for the first time here in a few months.

I’m being lazy and staying home. I’m going to the Canadian one- … next week. But Matt, what do you think, having attended OHCE for I think a couple years you were there, right? Or is it just one? 

[00:35:28] Matt Whitermore: Uh, yeah, yeah. Um- It’s such an interesting question. You know, I think like People are so conflicted because there is this, right?

All of the technology and the AI sessions are super well attended. People want to know it and they want that education, right? Like we just talked about. And, um, you know, I think they’re torn though because they’re so busy and I see this across all types of workers, right? I talk to a lot of people who want to know about how they can use AI and, and how it can help them.

But right. And I’ve said this before that like how I got into it was I just neglected all my other responsibilities for about a month. I just cleared my deck. 

[00:36:18] Brian Searl: Which is not good advice. Do not listen to Matt. 

[00:36:20] Sarah Stahl: Don’t do this at home. 

[00:36:22] Matt Whitermore: Right. I just, I just, ’cause I, I was never going to immerse myself the way I needed to immerse myself because we’re all busy with all the things and right.

It’s, it’s, it’s just, I think it, it, with anything, with, with the new way of marketing, with technology, with all the things that AI is allowing us to do, you need to get over like the first hump or hurdle, right? You need to like, it, it, it opens up your world. It’s a little bit of like an epiphany that happens and you realize, and then there’ll be a series of those and it’ll take you years to, to get to the point where you are like truly AI native, if that makes sense.

Um, so I see all these people that they want to know, but we talked about expectations too, and I think people have the wrong expectations about where technology and where AI is going, and I had this myself that it’s the smartest thing in the world. It should be easy, right? It shouldn’t be that hard for me to like understand how it works or like buil- build out some AI workflows and, and have an AI agent working for me and have my AI chief of staff or whatever.

Um, and some people do jump in and understand it and I think maybe they’re, they’re super smart, but it took me a long time and right. I think that’s where the conflict is, is that people want, people want it, people understand they need it, but I don’t think they’re necessarily willing to do what it takes to get there or that they don’t understand what it truly takes to get there.

And just, it’s always going to be this conflict of, right, I got to get ready for next weekend. I got to get ready for next season. All the things that force you- 

[00:38:11] Brian Searl: Which is a fair conflict. 

[00:38:13] Matt Whitermore: It is 100% a fair, a fair conflict. Um, but I think there are cer- you know, simultaneously and kind of unrelated, there’s all these pressures in our industry that are forcing it, right?

It’s a forcing function of, uh, labor costs are exploding, insurance costs are exploding, utility costs are exploding Um, right, m- uh, transient demand is down. Our RV sales are down. Um, so there’s all these, uh, headwinds, right, that are, I think are forcing people to realize that they need to run leaner, uh, they need to control all these costs and find creative ways to drive revenue.

Um, marketing is, is probably the most mature, established use case of AI. Um, it’s also the fastest way to lose trust with your, with your campers. Um, but I think if you set the right guardrails around it, the world is your oyster in terms of marketing, um, and having an, a very cheap army of, of AI agents and automated workflows really dialing up your marketing and that’s what I got lost in, right?

Oper- operating a tiny little campground that made no money, but it was such a special place and people loved it and all the creative things, all the programs, right? I could, I could spend 100% of my time as an owner on events, uh, promotions, giveaways, all– We were talking about social media and influencers and, and partnerships, right?

I could spend 100 hours a week on creative programming and marketing initiatives and partnerships on a campground that made $150,000 a year gross revenue, you know. And it– That’s what the campground needed to get to 200 or 250 or watching some glamping units and we needed all those things to hit the ground running with the new lodging concepts.

Um, it’s just so hard, right? And, and this was before I was really truly like AI pilled as, as, uh, the people say and the timing just wasn’t right ’cause it would’ve been completely different now, um, had I had some of these skills. Um, I, I really feel for owners, right? It’s– And I tell people as it’s, it’s a joke but it’s also 100% serious.

I’ve talked to a lot of people coming in from different sectors of commercial real estate and they, they get the money, the money signs in their eyes about, “Oh, uh, buying campgrounds,” right? “That’s buying RV parks, great cash flow.” And I tell everybody The money is the worst reason to get into outdoor hospitality.

It should not even be your top 100 reasons. Like, if you do it right, the money will come and it can be a very financially rewarding, uh, business to be in, but it’s, can’t be your top priority, right? It’s like I always, I always… It’s, it’s, I, I, I feel like I can say this ’cause I come from a real estate background, but I feel like real estate background people, uh, real estate investing are the worst profile for outdoor hospitality investments ’cause everything is the spreadsheet.

It’s the dollars and cents. It’s the cash flow. It’s what’s my re- what’s the top, bottom. 

[00:41:53] Brian Searl: And it’s mostly passive. 

[00:41:55] Matt Whitermore: Right. 

[00:41:55] Brian Searl: And campgrounds are not passive. 

[00:41:57] Matt Whitermore: Right. And, and I think people-

[00:42:00] Brian Searl: Or they shouldn’t be …

[00:42:01] Matt Whitermore: that come from, like, consumer goods or technology might be a better fit because, right, it’s what, what drives those people is they’re building an app or a widget.

They’re solving a problem.

[00:42:14] Sarah Stahl: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:14] Matt Whitermore: And the customer-

[00:42:16] Sarah Stahl: Mm …

[00:42:16] Matt Whitermore: the, the future ideal customer, they’re solving that problem, and they’re, and they’re obsessive about that, and they’re believing, they have faith that if they solve that problem, then the money will take care of itself.

[00:42:28] Sarah Stahl: Mm.

[00:42:28] Matt Whitermore: And I think you need to have more of that mindset of my one and only priority is guest experience.

How do I get new people in the door? How do I get people to return a- another time in, in years down the road once they come in for the first time? And right, you need to be obsessive and relentless about that, and just have faith, and have good business sense. Obviously, you need to control your costs, and you need to manage revenue and, and, and be a smart, you know, financial owner.

But, uh, it can’t be, it can’t be your number one reason. Uh-

[00:43:07] Brian Searl: I was gonna say, and- 

[00:43:08] Sarah Stahl: I think, I think you’re onto something there, Matt, ’cause I’ve been having a lot of offline conversations with peers in the industry about, um, why is hospitality behind in, in marketing in certain areas. Um, and it’s because they don’t think of it like e-commerce.

They’re perfectly fine giving up to the OTAs because they’re like, “The OTAs will do it for me.” Where, you know, if you’re an investor coming from an e-commerce side, you’re gonna look at it very differently, and you’re gonna know how to drive your own demand. So that’s a good point. 

[00:43:43] Brian Searl: Yeah. And I think there’s… like, I was gonna say when Matt finished, I was gonna say there’s two things, and then maybe there’s three. One is I think that time is a limiting factor, a- as you eloquently put it, Matt, but, like, the… just to add a little bit onto that, right? I think there’s probably a whole lot more people in our industry who want to have more hospitality but have no time-

[00:44:05] Sarah Stahl: Hmm

[00:44:05] Brian Searl: especially the mom-and-pop properties, right? And I think- 

[00:44:08] Matt Whitermore: Totally … 

[00:44:09] Brian Searl: you know, you mentioned and highlighted a bunch of this stuff. We don’t need to go back over it, uh, specifically related to that, Matt. You did a good job with that. Um, but I think that’s, that’s the number one problem is, “Yeah, I wanna get out there, and I wanna meet my guests more, but I don’t understand how to change.

I haven’t seen a vendor who’s helping me with that. The association isn’t teaching me that. I don’t have time to learn all that myself, and even if I did, I’ve gotta be able to trust other people to tell me what’s happening.” And I’ll get to that part in a second, right? But so that’s number one. And number two is I think the way…

And I, to some extent, I hope I’m wrong, but also I hope I’m right, which maybe makes me a good person or a bad person, depending on what hat I’m wearing for the day. But I think that where the economy is going with… Let’s just take your one, and we’ve talked about this extensively on Outwired and other shows, so we don’t wanna delve into, to the, you know, what may be a bad year in 2027.

But just take the pricing that you mentioned, Matt, the increases of everything. Uh, somebody was messaging me this morning saying they talked to a woman whose health insurance is gonna be $3,000 a month next year. Their own health insurance for one person is gonna be $1,500 a month next year. And then you’ve got gas and diesel and electricity and insurance and food and everything else that’s going up by s- 10 to 50% just in the last year alone in some of those cases.

And I think that the only good thing that’s gonna come out of that… It’s kinda like the, the one good thing that came out of COVID was more people went camping and outside, but you don’t want COVID to happen again, right? Nobody wants a down economy to happen. But I think the one good thing that may come out of it is that kind of updraft of forcing some of these owners to say, “Well, I’ve gotta do things differently.

I can’t keep doing the status quo anymore because the math just doesn’t work anymore And then the third thing is, and then I’ll let you guys comment on it, uh, is I think the answer is not– like, the owner is never gonna be able to learn all this stuff themselves. They’ve got to be able to have people that they trust or organizations they trust or companies they trust that can help them along the way.

I think that we have, and this is not unique to our industry by any stretch of the imagination, and as I say this, I’m not speaking about one person or one group or one company or one association. I’m doing this on a macro level, right? I think that the owner has to do their part. They have to be willing to learn, one, which I think I would guess that most of them probably are.

It’s just a time limiting factor or an economic li- limiting factor, right? Uh, I think they need companies that are willing to truly educate them in what they can do versus just sell to them, and I think there are some good companies out there that are trying to do that. I think there are some that aren’t or likewise to the owners, don’t have the time or capacity or mandate to do that from whoever owns them, right?

Uh, but I think they need companies who can do that because if you have companies, and I’ll pick on Sherise and I’ll give her a compliment, but I’ll say like if you have companies that are releasing innovation and features to the extent that Camp- CampGuide is, then you don’t need to lie to somebody at a trade show booth and say, “I have something.”

You have it. Or you say, “No, I don’t have that, but I’ve got six other things,” right? And so I think that’s the answer to the company’s piece of it, and then the other piece of it is the associations. And we have lots of educational sessions when you go to different conferences on a national, state, provincial level, and some of them are really good.

Probably most of them are really good, right? But it tends to be in my experience, and this is over sixteen years of, again, macro level, is that we have a lot of really smart people in this industry willing to talk about a really sm- really wide variety of topics. But then once you find somebody good at an association level, you tend to have that same person back to talk about the same thing year after year after year after year after year because it’s an easy thing to plug into your schedule and you don’t have to worry about it.

You don’t have to go out and find a speaker for something your members are asking you for or you think they need because you just take the applications and fill them up as quickly as possible, or in some smaller cases, whoever happens to wanna write you a big fat check. So I’ll leave you with all those three things, whoever wants to take something.

[00:48:25] Sarah Stahl: I do wanna say I don’t think the big fat check is such a small case. Um, I– that’s actually my frustration with, um, not just the hospitality industry, but in general, like the speakers are paying to be there, and they end up being sales pitches, and that’s not education. 

[00:48:43] Brian Searl: I mean, it could be, but it’s generally not. You’re right 

[00:48:46] Sarah Stahl: No, it could be. They should use the opportunity, but that’s not what’s happening by and large. 

[00:48:54] Brian Searl: So how do we fix that? Like, is it… I mean, obviously it’s at an association level to fix it. It’s not a we, this people in this room-

[00:49:01] Sarah Stahl: Mm-hmm …

[00:49:01] Brian Searl: to fix it, right? But is it fixable other than to have some new AI native association startup come out of the woodwork and just do it right?

[00:49:11] Sarah Stahl: Um, I’m a very optimistic person- … but I’m gonna have to go with Matt’s pessimism here. Um, because at the end of the day, everything comes down to, I need to make money on this. And, you know, that’s why the folks that pay the most get the stages because the association needs to make money off, off of that.

They, they wanna grow bigger because they have agendas, and they also have grants or whatever that they’re trying to fund for the industry. So, um, I really hear and see your heart here, Brian, and I think the more folks who share, um, your heart, you know, and I think that there’s a lot of us in the industry who do.

I think that that’s an important alliance to make. But if you’re looking at the big picture, trying to s- brush stroke a solution, at the end of the day, people are people, and they’re all trying to make money. 

[00:50:05] Brian Searl: But can’t you do both? Can’t you make your own and- 

[00:50:07] Sarah Stahl: Oh, yes, 100% Yeah … you can do both. But, um, I was under the impression we’re talking about the, the, uh, the, the big picture and- 

[00:50:17] Brian Searl: We are. We are … 

[00:50:18] Sarah Stahl: I don’t, I don’t know-

[00:50:19] Brian Searl: But if, if there is somebody who just- …

[00:50:19] Sarah Stahl: if it’s possible for the whole to function that way 

[00:50:23] Brian Searl: Maybe not. But I’m gonna be-

[00:50:25] Sarah Stahl: Yeah, um- …

[00:50:26] Brian Searl: optimistic and I’ll say like, “I hope so.” Uh, I, I think that I’m hopeful that AI is going to be such a game changer. 

[00:50:34] Matt Whitermore: Mm. 

[00:50:34] Brian Searl: It’s going to allow people who never would have had money to start an association, start a company, develop an app develop software, get funding, own a campground, whatever else, that it is going to allow such a broader pool of people into the industry that by its very-

[00:50:51] Sarah Stahl: Mm …

[00:50:51] Brian Searl: percentage nature someone will have to come out of the woodwork 

[00:50:55] Sarah Stahl: Mm … that does it. That you’re saying the folks that don’t have a voice are gonna have a voice?

[00:51:00] Brian Searl: I hope so. 

[00:51:01] Sarah Stahl: Yeah. I agree with that. I, I hope so for that too. 

[00:51:05] Brian Searl: I mean, social media democratized that a little bit, right? 

[00:51:08] Sarah Stahl: Mm-hmm. 100%. 

[00:51:09] Brian Searl: Or at least early social media did. So. 

[00:51:12] Sarah Stahl: I think it’s still alive and well. 

[00:51:14] Brian Searl: Yeah. 

[00:51:15] Sarah Stahl: Yeah. 

[00:51:16] Brian Searl: Sherise, Matt, any comments? 

[00:51:19] Sherise Gumbs: There’s a lot of things I kinda wanna touch on a little bit. So, um, at the beginning, like, closer to the beginning we, we talked a little bit about how AI would, will change things a lot.

I think it will, and I think it’s gonna change things in two different ways. Number one, there’s gonna be that force to have better UI, better experience for the people who don’t wanna build, and then I think it’s also going to allow people who want to build these things to do better. Now, the major, I think, barrier to entry is that AI is so expensive, and I think that’s the same barrier of entry that I think is go- is part of what we’re seeing in those conferences where well, there’s such a major barrier of entry to even attend those conferences. Like, I’m just looking at my next year. I’m about to spend over $20,000 just attending conferencing.

[00:52:06] Sarah Stahl: Good point. 

[00:52:06] Brian Searl: Yeah. That’s part of the reason I’m staying home. It’s cheaper. 

[00:52:11] Sherise Gumbs: I will say a lot of those companies, number… it’s like that never ending cycle where it’s like in order to get customers you have to spend so much money that you’re, you can run out of money before you’re able to continue.

Or for the people that can fund it, that changes things where it’s like, “Okay, I’m a supplier, I already have the people. I’m just gonna keep throwing money into these conferences to get there.” So I think we’re gonna s- likely see that balance out a little bit, but my hope is that these conferences take the people who are willing to pay money, yes, they still have th- their parts, but then also spend that money that you’re getting in on those little niche areas to bring in some guest speakers who have a little bit different of a, different of an experience.

[00:52:52] Sarah Stahl: Hm. I like it. 

[00:52:57] Brian Searl: Man, 

[00:52:57] Matt Whitermore: I think everything is so, everything’s so political with, with the, uh, with the associations, um, which is a shame. Um- 

[00:53:07] Brian Searl: And, and just to be clear, we’re not saying all. We’re saying, like, on a macro level we’re speaking, right? 

[00:53:12] Matt Whitermore: Yeah. No, I, I’ve n- you know.

[00:53:15] Sarah Stahl: That was believable.

[00:53:16] Matt Whitermore: I’m, I’m an, I’m, I’m an outsider.

[00:53:19] Brian Searl: Well, I, I know a couple good association leaders who really do a great… I, I mean, honestly, so. 

[00:53:24] Matt Whitermore: No, for sure.

[00:53:26] Sarah Stahl: Yeah.

[00:53:26] Matt Whitermore: For sure, and I think there’s good value there overall. Um, but I think an educational, uh, I think we’re onto something here, that an educational piece just for the sake of education would be a huge boost, right?

There’s some really good sessions, and there were some really good speakers, uh, on technology and marketing, but it’s always, it’s always through the lens of, “Look at my shiny new toy. Look at our new release. Look at our…” Right? You know, it’s, and it, sure, like, that makes sense. It’s always part of a sales pitch or, or a precursor to a sales pitch.

Um, you know, I think there’s some really good programs like, um, you know, the s- the school, what’s the school program, um, that, um, OHI does? Uh, it’s like a, they give out scholarships. 

[00:54:17] Brian Searl: Oh, yeah, National School. I d- I don’t know if there’s another name besides National School, but. 

[00:54:20] Matt Whitermore: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? Like, stuff like that’s great.

I think more offerings like that where it’s just education for the sake of education, and, and we keep, keep the sales pitch out of it and keep, keep the, the, you know, the selfish me- selfish messaging out of it. Um, right, everything- 

[00:54:39] Brian Searl: I will tell you that that’s one of the things that I like about KOA, and I, and, and they don’t let me-

[00:54:44] Matt Whitermore: Yeah

[00:54:44] Brian Searl: when I go to the conference, like, they don’t let me come into the education sessions ’cause I’m typically there as a journalist to cover it, but I’m also a vendor. Um, but generally they only let their own staff, for the most part, teach those sessions, and I think that actually is a strength of KOA.

[00:55:00] Matt Whitermore: Totally.

[00:55:02] Brian Searl: Cause they’ve already got you. They’re not trying to sell you anything, right? I mean, they’re trying to keep you there, but you understand what I’m saying. 

[00:55:08] Matt Whitermore: Right. 

[00:55:09] Brian Searl: But sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off. Continue. 

[00:55:11] Matt Whitermore: No, that, I mean, that was the complete thought. Uh, it, it just… Right? There’s so much good stuff there, um, but it’s always, you know, what’s the, uh, what’s the, what is it?

Cui, cui bono? Who, who benefits? You know, it’s always like, what’s the motivation? What’s the, uh, what’s, what’s the reasoning behind this? And it, it makes me question, right, is, is there an opportunity for, uh, truly just education for, you know, a rising tide lifts all ships kinda, kinda philosophy. Um, and I think there’s a little bit of that, but it could go a lot further, right?

Marketing workshops, technology workshops, um, you know, without it always just being some sort of vendor showcase. 

[00:56:01] Brian Searl: But again, we go back, everything circles back to expectations, right? I don’t, I don’t think there are any people, there are some people, I don’t think there are a majority of people banging down the doors of the association saying, “We want different education.”

So if they had that expectation, or if they… And again, it shouldn’t really be on them. You sh- I- in, in this specific narrow thing that we’re talking about, right, the association in theory would know its members better than anyone else, and I’ve said this to people for years, right? And would go out and be like, “Okay, well, we’re gonna open calls for submissions for classes, but we’ve already got 80% of them full ’cause we know what our members have asked us all year, and we went out and found the best possible people we can in our industry or external to our industry if they don’t exist in our industry to speak on this specific topic,” is how I think it should work.

That’s how we ran the National Canadian virtual one. Now, granted, virtual was a whole lot easier in 2021 than flying everybody in and getting everybody to be there in person ’cause they can appear from anywhere. But, uh, I think that just, I think that’s a base responsibility of an association. I don’t…

Maybe I’m just not seeing something. And I’m, and again, there are associations who do that well in our industry. I don’t think all of them do. 

[00:57:16] Matt Whitermore: Agreed. 

[00:57:18] Brian Searl: All right, let’s, uh, we’ve got a couple more minutes here. We wrapped up. I think, I think we must have said something to irritate Sarah. She left. Um, probably had internet connection issues, but, uh, let’s wrap up and just say, uh, uh, Sherise, do you have any questions for Matt?

Or Matt, do you have any questions for Sherise? We normally would’ve gone around the table, but there’s only two of you here now. 

[00:57:37] Sherise Gumbs: I’ll let Matt go first. 

[00:57:39] Matt Whitermore: Um, how, how… When did you, uh, found CampGuide? 

[00:57:45] Sherise Gumbs: Officially, I would say about two months ago 

[00:57:48] Matt Whitermore: Oh, wow. Okay, cool 

[00:57:50] Sherise Gumbs: So we’re, we’re mostly l- new. Yeah I’m definitely curious to learn more about…

Is, is it pronounced Travo? 

[00:57:58] Matt Whitermore: Travo. Travo. 

[00:57:59] Sherise Gumbs: Travo. Okay. 

[00:58:00] Matt Whitermore: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:58:00] Sherise Gumbs: Yeah. I think AI naming is, there’s, there’s like s- so many different changes coming in the space, and I’m so curious to see how everyone’s using, like, the same tools as well. 

[00:58:12] Matt Whitermore: Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s a good question. Um, so what, uh, what would you say is your biggest differentiator from, uh, from the rest of the crowd of, uh, campground PMSs?

[00:58:23] Brian Searl: You didn’t hear, man? She said she did- you don’t have to upload a CSV to change your rates. 

[00:58:29] Sherise Gumbs: The level of detail-

[00:58:29] Brian Searl: Sorry …

[00:58:30] Sarah Stahl: the level of detail that’s allowed i- or that’s in each feature, and then also the ability to customize and fully own every part of your thing. You don’t have to com- l- like you never have to contact support.

Even if you’re just like, “I wanna add another feature,” you can just do that yourself. There’s… Most of it is not really contacting support. Like, the most that our users contact support is, would be just like, “Hey, could we add this feature? Like, we have a m- a map.” And they’re like, “Well, I want to also have brick roads.”

I’m like, “Okay, we can do that.” There’s those. that’s more so what our support experience has been versus it being like, “I wanna change this rate or this thing,” you know? 

[00:59:12] Brian Searl: All right. Uh, final thoughts, Matt, and then where can they learn more about Travo? 

[00:59:17] Matt Whitermore: Uh, final thoughts. Um, a lot of interesting topics today.

You know, I’m, I’m hopeful for our industry. I think, right, it’s the most important thing. It’s filled with people who care and, and who, who wanna see the best for everybody else. That’s what always, uh, drew me into this industry and, and kept me, you know, wanting to stay in it. Um, you know, so I’m, I’m hopeful for the future as, as much as maybe I came off as a pessimist, uh, in, in the discussions.

But, uh, I’m actually pretty hopeful and, um, you can find out more about Travo at travoai.com. Again, we’re a AI-native commercial real estate brokerage, uh, and we’re representing some, uh, some buyers and acquirers of RV parks and campgrounds and developers of glamping, uh, and, and outdoor lodging concepts.

So if, uh, you feel like you could use some help in finding your next site, uh, definitely reach out. You can, you know, reach me on LinkedIn, you can reach me at matt@travoai.com, and we’d love to jump in and show you w- what we can do to help you locate your next site. 

[01:00:30] Brian Searl: Thanks for being here, Matt. And yeah, I agree with you, like everybody calls me a pessimist.

I’m just more- … of a realist. But I think where this goes is outdoor hospitality is one of the most important businesses on the planet. Totally. 100%. Because I think everybody’s gonna try- everybody’s gonna need to disconnect from technology, and there’s no more real place than sitting by a river underneath trees or next to a mountain.

And I think that makes us campgrounds and RV parks and glamping resorts one of the most important things in society for the next- 100% … 100 years. 

[01:00:58] Matt Whitermore: Yeah. 

[01:00:58] Brian Searl: Sherise, final thoughts. Where can they learn more about CampGuide? 

[01:01:01] Sherise Gumbs: Um, you can learn more about CampGuide by going to our website, campguide.app. Um, it’s software.campguide.app.

And, you know, I feel like I have really strong opinions about it, but I don’t think there’s any major negative in the industry either. I think there’s just some, I guess, inherent differences in how some people would run things than the others. Um, I think that we are all just trying to make- open our doors to more campers, and we’re just all trying to make ends meet at the end of the day.

So I’ll say that, and I’ll hand it back over to you, Brian. 

[01:01:38] Brian Searl: All right. Well, thank you, uh, Sherise, uh, Matt, and Sarah. Hopefully we didn’t really offend her. Uh, she just lost her internet connection. But, uh, we- for- S- Sarah will be here, uh, next month with us as well on week number four, so we’re excited to have her as a recurring guest.

Thank you, everybody, for joining us on another episode of MC Fireside Chats. There’s no Outwired today. Scott and I are taking the week off. Gonna be off next week too, although we’ll both be in Vancouver for the Canadian Outdoor Hospitality Conference and Expo. But, uh, other than that, we will see you next week on another episode of MC Fireside Chats.

Take care, guys. I appreciate it. 

[01:02:09] Matt Whitermore: Thank you.