[00:00:51] Good morning, everybody. Welcome to another episode of MC Fireside Chats. My name is Brian Searl with Insider Perks, super excited to be here with Cara as always [00:01:00] Cara Csizmadia from the Canadian Camping & RV Council. And Mr. Darryle Busa the editor in chief of Modern Campground. Our first, like we’ve been doing these open discussion shows for a long time, and this is the first time where we’re going to have this panel of recurrent guests, half of which didn’t show up and half of which will show up next time, because it’s not their fault to be clear.
[00:01:20] Like it’s always something that blows up when you’re doing internet streaming shows or whatever else, whether it’s time zones or coordination or whatever, but it wouldn’t be exciting otherwise. So I feel like it’s a good thing. It would just be boring and bland but really excited, with our open discussion show.
[00:01:33] For those of you who don’t know, we have just normally it’s just me, Cara, and Darryle now, and then maybe a special guest here and there, but we’re just talking about the latest news and topics and things like that. And yeah. I feel like I didn’t see the emails, but I feel like somebody was constantly emailing Cara and complaining that it was just me talking too much on these shows.
[00:01:51] And so we invited new guests on here. So you, Cara is not in your head. She knows. Yeah. So we’ve set up a panel of new guests here. Some of them are glamping the glamping [00:02:00] show USA, like a bunch of them are. And so we’ve got Casey who live from the glamping show from camp spot here is going to be one of our regular guests.
[00:02:06] We’re going to go around and do intros for bios, for people. Randy Hendrickson normally would be on the show with us. And we’ll be the follow-up the future open discussion shows that he is in back-to-back meetings at the glamping show. I think Scott’s at the glamping show too. Are you there, Scott?
[00:02:18] Yeah, that’s right. I don’t know if you can see all the cool structures behind me Scott’s outside. Like how did you get stuck inside Casey Scott? Yeah, it’s beautiful working there. So he must have the VIP pass or something. I did get a special. Okay, rock and roll. Alright. So yeah, we’re got a couple of people live from the gladly show.
[00:02:41] We’re going to talk about that kind of stuff. We got Curt pan check. Is that, how am I pronouncing it? Yeah, you got the Curt part. All right. How do I say it then? Reverend Jack repping check. Okay. All right, got it. I won’t mess it up again. So Kurt Repanchek is here from national parks traveler.
[00:02:57] For those of you who don’t know him in the industry I’m going to [00:03:00] let him give his bio in a second, but super cool publication. That’s been around for quite a number of years now, focusing on national parks and those issues and things like that. And so I think we’re missing Sandy Ellenson, Ellingson, too, who is a RV industry consultant.
[00:03:14] She was supposed to be live from the Albuquerque balloon Fiesta. She’s down there traveling as well. So hopefully she’ll join us. Mark cap is somewhere floating around the glamping show too. So it just conferences are taking a bite out of our show today, but we’re going to have a good discussion.
[00:03:27] So let’s go around and just have Kurt. You want to start and just introduce give yourself, give an extended bio right first time on the show, but people in the industry don’t know, I think who you are as much as they should. All right. National parks traveler is a nonprofit news organization that is focused specifically on national parks and protected areas predominantly across the United States.
[00:03:47] But we did establish a Canadian presence this year. And the law Green’s goal is to cover national parks, the world over. And it’s a a hybrid between a daily newspaper as well as a magazine because we do [00:04:00] daily news coverage on things like the young lady who fell into a hot spring in Yellowstone national park alert.
[00:04:05] The bear attack incident in great smoky mountains, national park, of course, the wildfires out in Sequoia national park. And then we do a longer features that either a travel log type piece, how to enjoy a specific park or a, that delves into an issue I’m a little bit more deeply than you’ll see most out there on most media outlets.
[00:04:23] For instance, we’ve got a story coming up, hopefully this Sunday about the Chesapeake bay area and efforts to make it part of the national park system and some of the unique stories that the bay has out there to tell to people. So it’s a nonprofit. News organization that covers everything in anything involving national parks and protected areas.
[00:04:44] And so one of the reasons we had wanted to bring you on, and we’ll explore this a little bit, as the shows go on as you have these regular appearances with us, Kurt, is it we want it, we felt like there’s more of a symmetry here that people aren’t exploring as much as they should between private campgrounds and national parks.
[00:04:57] It’s a, it’s an interesting dynamic there [00:05:00] because you’ve got the national park system and their long-term philosophy on how to manage the parks. And you don’t see as many amenities in the national park campgrounds for our veers and whatnot. And then you’ve got the commercial outfits outside the national parks, which provide those opportunities.
[00:05:17] And so between the two, hopefully we can meet all needs of our veers, whether you are. Hold on a fifth wheel or just got a camper on the back of your pickup truck. And it’s interesting to see how they’re evolving because right now the national park service for some months has been studying exactly what should the 21st century Campground look like.
[00:05:36] And I know there’s been a lot of input on, how do we deal with the growing size of RVs and how many hookups do we provide and should there be food stores at campgrounds? And what about wifi? Everybody wants more and more wifi. And does it properly, does it deserve to have a place in national parks?
[00:05:56] Yeah, so I can imagine the thousands of different topics we’re going to delve in there, but [00:06:00] let’s maybe not just today, but as we ongoing and consider a relationship, mC Fireside Chats and super excited about that. Let’s go to Casey, who is live from the glamping show. Cause he’s got to, he’s got to leave us a little bit early, cause he’s super busy and camp spots amazingly popular.
[00:06:12] Apparently I’ve never heard of them. So just tell us who is Camping.
[00:06:27] The America showing that I have a connection issue. That’s okay. Yeah. We can hear you a little bit. You’re a little bit choppy. So I think the issue is across this whole glamping show, I’ve heard from several different people that the wifi isn’t the best in the world, but I’ll, hopefully we’ll get Casey back, but Casey is obviously the business development manager of camp spot work with go ahead, Casey, if you’re back.
[00:06:48] Yeah, the back Henry. So we work with, 1500 plus Campground across north America. Every big and small way. We try to provide a value with helping parks, maximize revenue and maximize them on [00:07:00] a book and he’s taking it at the parks. And so we’re constantly learning and constantly seeking out as far as where this industry is moving and what it needs and trying to stay ahead of that, to provide the best software in this space to accommodate the growing number of campgrounds and the growing needs that Campground really should expect.
[00:07:15] So we’re a number of great companies that are out there that provide this, but yeah, we’re going to do our part to help the industry keep looking forward. We’re excited to have you, but I can’t think of as far as open discussions and timely topics and things as somebody who regularly interacts.
[00:07:31] 1500 plus parks, not you directly, but your company. I feel like there’s a ton of insights and discussions we can always have with you. So looking forward to that Mr. Scott foods from horizon outdoors is also at the glamping show, but any much better background than what’s going on today. Hey guys.
[00:07:48] Yeah. Happy to in glad to be here. Thanks for having us. Yeah we’re here at the glamping show and from what I’ve heard out officially, it’s three attendance is up three times from what it was two years ago and it was just [00:08:00] live here and we’re amazed at what we’re seeing out here, but a little bit about us horizon outdoor hospitality’s at third.
[00:08:07] Management and consulting firm extensively serving the RV resort and glamping space. We work with a handful of properties nationally and we really provide a, to Z services that, that you would expect with turnkey, full management, but also consulting and accounting and marketing services as well.
[00:08:26] So we’re excited to see some of the some of the growth that our industry is currently experiencing and especially here in the glamping space and it’s electric being here and it’s it’s been a really fun experience. Now, I know a lot of people have heard of you, Scott. But I feel like you’re underselling yourself a little bit, when you say, which will have properties
[00:08:48] in the grand scheme of things. It’s just a few yeah. We had a a few dozen properties from Oregon down to California and across the coast to Florida up to moving blend and everywhere in between. And we [00:09:00] manage a wide variety of properties too, which is pretty interesting to see the differences between, in the RV and the RV resort space, the differences between like extended state properties and transient Oriental properties, but also more of the true glamping rated properties as well, but that we have to it’s a small industry, but it’s very different from one property type to the next and one area to the next, to.
[00:09:20] Yeah it’s been a, it’s been an interesting experience of the last couple of years. And your growth has really taken off at horizon outdoors, which we’ll get into as we talk to you across many different shows, but it’d be your back. You’re not new to the industry. So talk just briefly about, yeah.
[00:09:33] Yeah. I entered the industry in 2005 as a housekeeping front desk maintenance do it all kind of guy at one of Colorado’s premier resorts and quickly began to manage that property. I managed it through college and after college I joined horizon it was surprise that RV resorts at the time, Randy Hendrickson was the owner.
[00:09:51] Horizon itself has been in business since 2004. And we have we, my wife and I Lindsey she and I purchased the company last August [00:10:00] and yeah. Business in that time is about tripled. And it’s been a, it’s been a wild ride and I think it’s I think it’s indicative of what we’re seeing in from, the demand overall.
[00:10:08] So that’s awesome. Excited to have you here. I think Angela is geared to, she has her a camera off, but we’ll have her introduce herself in a second. When she gets back, I know she’s dealing with a sick child this morning, so juggling multiple things. So hopefully he feels better and all that kind of stuff, but what are we going to talk about today?
[00:10:25] I feel obviously let’s start with a glamping show, right? We’ve got, I think Casey’s here. Do you just turn it off his video? Maybe has some internet connection issues inside, but tell us give us what you’ve seen so far, Scott at the glamping show. Yeah. What’s been really interesting here at the forum is great.
[00:10:42] You’ve got the indoor seminars that are every other hour, I believe they’re about an hour long and there’s an indoor exhibit. And then there’s the outdoor structure exhibit. And every single area is. And we were surprised to see so many people here again today on the second day it looks like a lot of new faces as [00:11:00] well.
[00:11:00] The structures, there’s a wide variety of things out here, and that’s been really interesting to, to see the development of as well with anything from canvas to hard sided. And now we’re seeing some really cool some really cool units that are like a hybrid hard sided canvas that I think to do really well in certain environments.
[00:11:16] So that’s been, that seemed, the structure seemed to be generating the most buzz. It looks like and rightfully it’s fun to walk him through. But it’s great to see a lot of the vendors inside too. Anything that, that you would expect to see at a, at an event like this from, camp spot in other reservation systems to, insurance and some furniture and that sort of thing.
[00:11:35] And the seminars are great. All the speakers seem like they’re really knowledgeable. And we just got out of the, it was a technology and the glamping seminar with it was a round table. There was a couple of industry leaders posting that, and it was, you’re always learning something new and it’s just, it’s great to be in that environment where it seems like everybody really is caring for each other.
[00:11:54] Everybody, we are all in the same industry together and we all rise together. So the more sharing [00:12:00] that we can do seems to benefit everybody. Okay. I think it’s fascinating how the glamping show I don’t want to say popped out of nowhere. Cause obviously they have European division and things like that.
[00:12:09] But when you look at the complete competing conferences and they’re not really competitors with each other, but the similar conferences from Arvik to Koa, to LSI to the state associations, glamping is definitely a baby when it comes to some of those shows. But it seems to be catching fire like much more quickly than I would have thought, like the attendance in 2019 when I was there, I wish it was there now.
[00:12:29] I just stuck in limbo here in Canada. But but yeah, it just seems like there’s so much engagement, so much interest. Were you there in 2019 Scott? I think Randy was, but I know even though it’s, even though I live 45 minutes from here I was out of town. This is my first time, but Casey, you were there in 2019, right?
[00:12:47] Yeah, I was here. Yeah, it is. It’s incredible. How many people all over the world really? It’s incredible how many people from Mexico that are putting up campgrounds are trying to get into the space. Yeah, I think the interesting thing here is [00:13:00] how many people are actively pursuing using whatever space or land or potential they have to build something and all that.
[00:13:09] And a lot of people here, it’s building something small, right? One to five units or something like that, with the hopes to expand it to 15 or 20, we have some larger, 40 to 60 site just, alternative lodging, but just the better experience. And I think it just speaks to the industry as far as.
[00:13:27] How much it’s expanding and growing because people want to get outside. I unfortunately stayed in a hotel last night and each time I do I’m used to it, a program to doing that. But as soon as I, step out of that and get into a, an outdoor lodging environment, it’s just, it’s better.
[00:13:42] It’s just as a better experience overall. So I just love to see the growth of how many people are taking their money and doing this with it. Yeah. I think it really speaks to the adaptability of folks in this industry who could just see that, despite there [00:14:00] being tons of RVs on the road and RV units selling all the time, there was still this tangible, significant portion of market that wasn’t as accessible to us.
[00:14:11] And so this ability to expand, to access those, even in those small ways to begin with just makes such good business tends to better use. Casey said your property. It also impacts things like operating season lengths. It can really extend your operating season into those shoulder seasons and potentially winter defending obviously things specifically to our Northern climate.
[00:14:34] But those things make a ton of sense. And I think folks in this industry are by nature, very typically, very adaptable. So I’m not surprised at all to see. I think lamping is such a big, curling through the list of sessions at the at the glamping show right now. And there’s so many topics to cover.
[00:14:53] I think that’s part of why those existing conferences we see. You can touch on only touch [00:15:00] on so many things during that time. And so this ability to really focus in on it there’s obviously a need judging by how many people apparently are there. And I want to dive more into the yeah. Kurt.
[00:15:12] That’s what I was going to ask you. If glamping has crossed over into the national parks yet, and then I want to dive more into it, Casey and Scott are seen, it’s a, it’s an interesting issue. And of course it’s a controversial issue. Some years ago, national parks travel did a feature on a outfitter that.
[00:15:28] Took it back, took the glamping experience into the back country. They went into Yellowstone lake and set up at one of the back country, campsites there, and they had, tents set up and you would get your hot towels in the morning and your car was set up in warm cups of coffee and all that.
[00:15:42] Wow. It’s interesting to see it explore, expand into the back country of national parks and Scott in a minute. I’d like to hear from you as far as whether any of the companies you were meeting with or your company is looking at national parks as potential avenues for glamping. At the same [00:16:00] time here in Utah, it’s caused quite a controversy down in the Moab and Zion areas.
[00:16:06] I national park, arches, national park companies are moving in with these grandiose plans of, I think, upwards of, hundreds of thousands of guests. Glamping right on the doorstep of a national park, BLM lands, public lands. And so the question is this appropriate? Is it putting too much pressure on the national park?
[00:16:27] Are we really turning national parks into these biological islands that are surrounded by human presence? Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ll just touch on this in Canada parks. Canada does have a glamping program. They actually do a learn to camp program and they’ve got your units and other canvas structures set up in several of their parks and they.
[00:16:50] Sex pairs sections of the market that aren’t technically campers yet. So whether that’s a new Canadians who maybe just immigrated or something like that they [00:17:00] run programs specifically using glamping units inside the national parks to get more folks Camping. And those are great examples of how our national and provincial park spaces really support our industry as a whole.
[00:17:12] And, I think private operators sometimes struggle with having a good collaborative relationship with those parks, but that’s one of the ways that they really impact our industry in such a positive way.
[00:17:27] Scott. Did you have anything to say to, to what Kurt was saying, or I think it’s a really important question. I don’t know that I’ve, I don’t have the, I don’t have a S a solution by any means, but I think what’s really important is being a good steward of the national parks and what it means to visit them responsibly and what it also means to be a I Camping or glamping establishment and how you can partner and support the national parks as well.
[00:17:54] I think there’s a lot of, I’ve seen a lot of backlash. To my cart was saying not [00:18:00] necessarily from, it seems like government agencies, but more so from local communities that live near these national parks that, they moved there for a certain seclusion and, ability to access them and enjoy the tranquility and of that.
[00:18:12] And, I think the issue really does stem to how you can support them and operate a business that brings awareness to the national parks and brings awareness to the intrinsic values of. Visiting these places, but in a way that in a way that doesn’t overrun them and which is something that I think, the national park system is dealing with already.
[00:18:31] I just saw yesterday that, somebody, I think for the first time in awhile is able to move away from a reservation system for access. So I don’t know what that really means in the grand scheme of things, but I think it is very interesting to see how we can partner with national parks.
[00:18:46] And I think Kurt, we should have some discussions, as maybe in a future ways, the weekend ways that the private sector can help support what you’re doing in the national park system as well. I’ll say that you have seventies reservation system that was just [00:19:00] implemented largely during the COVID crisis.
[00:19:02] And Rocky mountain national park had a similar one. Acadia national park has a reservation system as well. If you want to go up to the summit of Cadillac mountain, but that was more to address just general congestion. Whereas what was going on at Rocky and Yosemite was tied directly to the Corona virus pandemic, although Rocky mountain acknowledges that they do have a congestion problem.
[00:19:24] A lot of people have told park staff that they won’t be coming back until it’s stress addressed. And we had a podcast, I think it was last week with the superintendent of Rocky mountain delving into that. But I think it’s a larger problem because not just inside the national parks, but surrounding.
[00:19:40] How much is too much. How much before you kill that golden goose, which is the national park system. There’s incredible overcrowding and in places like Zion and Yosemite and Yellowstone and Rocky mountain, how much is too much before people start saying, I’m not going to go to those parks.
[00:19:55] And the commercial industry suffers because of. It’s a tough one [00:20:00] to, I’m glad I’m not managing either a park or a Campground community. Yeah. It’s a delicate balance that we’ll figure out. I’m sure we’ll dive into, over the course of maybe even later on this show, but just before Casey, I know Casey is not going to be on the show with us too long.
[00:20:14] So Casey, one of the questions that I have real quick, and you can talk more about glamping and what you’re seeing as a vendor perspective too, but, and maybe this is throwing you into the fire a little bit, cause it’s a controversial topic. But when I was there in 2019, I would meet a lot of people.
[00:20:26] And I think you and Scott both touched on this with people who are looking to set up the one site, the two sites, the 10 sites, the whatever, is there a sense of the difference between the people who are looking to operate glamping from a Campground perspective versus an individual land use hip camp type perspective?
[00:20:48] I don’t have any audio from you, Casey. I’m sorry. I don’t know if you’re muted, but I think I’m good now. Sorry. Yeah. So th that is an [00:21:00] interesting thing, because there’s just a lot of legalities to people just setting up shop, like you have this space here, or actually zoning it to actually be a legitimate Campground spot specifically.
[00:21:10] We’ve taken the stance that we were only working with, say legitimate a in a negative way or the other way, but with real campgrounds, with analyse that set up and zones specifically for that type of business. But it’s interesting because in that same breath, we’re probably telling 50, quote unquote non parks a week.
[00:21:27] Hey, this isn’t a good fit. Either for our stocker or for our marketplace, just because that’s where we’re focused on right now, because we don’t know what the future holds for a lot of kind of hip to hip camp type properties. Are those going to still be legal? Are they getting shut down?
[00:21:39] Are they having to adjust change? And really us being focused on the Campground market campgrounds are at a disadvantage. If someone can just throw up a year, and not have to get zoned for it and I’d have to have proper Tricity and bathrooms and things of that sort. We’re erring on the side of, supporting the Campground space.
[00:21:55] So which hopefully means that we turned, two thirds of the people here away that it’s [00:22:00] just really not a good fit for our business. But it’ll be interesting to see. Scott would be a good. A lot of parks are adding clamping. We see that a ton of back and pay that by the amount of edits that we’re doing right now for Campground.
[00:22:13] And we almost at a double down on our graphic designers just to come up with them. And a lot of it is lodging, right? They’re adding cabins or tiny home type aspects or yurts. And just to add that experience. So I think there’s a lot to be decided on will this new experience last will people default back to a really cool tenant or the people that are looking for lodging, they’re going to want to go back to the traditional cabin.
[00:22:38] Because right now you can’t miss right now with outdoor lodging, right? Almost anything that’s outdoor. For the most part, people are eating up. It’s a matter of a cabin. We know it has been proven, we know that having return on the investments that are. And we know that there’s a audience that want to be in a camper, an RV trailer, but they all [00:23:00] are dedicated to being in the Campground.
[00:23:01] That’s the experience that they want. W we’ll glamping, the longevity of it work as well as those cabins have, I think that’s yet to be proven, but Scott probably has properties that have them on there and he would, he would know better than I. No, I think everything you said rings true to me as well, Casey.
[00:23:16] And I probably should talk quietly because that’s probably not a popular thing to say here, but think that yeah, the number of people that we’ve talked to that that are, that have land, and they’re just going to pop up a few safari tents and do off the grid, Camping and they’re, outside of Portland or, in these probably really cool spots and they probably have really beautiful properties and great intentions, but a lot of it is really illegal from a zoning perspective.
[00:23:39] Yeah. And so what we what we have found in, in, in a true RV resort in Camping space and, permitted glamping properties, How you do it. I think how we build it will help to determine how long this wave may last. And what I mean specifically by that is we’ve got a couple of properties that are [00:24:00] like this.
[00:24:00] We’ve got, safari really beautiful safari lodges with bathrooms, but they’re 10 feet from their neighbor. And we’re working to actively figure out how we resolve that because people say we love the experience, but it felt like we were in a beautiful hotel room, but we could hear everything our neighbors were doing at their campfire until 1:00 AM or whatever it was.
[00:24:19] And so I think if we continue in the private space, if we continue to develop properties that have high density and glamping units, and we don’t really give them. To the experience that our guests should be having at these? I think it might, I think it may be short-lived. I think that people might be reverting back to hard sided units, which we tend to prefer anyways because of the seasonality and all sorts of maintenance operating benefits that you get in the familiarity to the hotel space.
[00:24:44] But I think it’s going to be interesting to see if we can, if we, as private parks can can do this responsibly and make sure we’re keeping the guests experience in mind, which I think is overlooked. I think that we can have this be more impactful to the RV industry and give [00:25:00] folks zoned and legal places to go stay.
[00:25:04] Yeah. And you can add to that, Scott, most Campground you want to get someone to commit to your park, then you want them coming back, right? You might not want them there for six months at a time. Do you want to go more of the transient route than the permanent or long-term rough?
[00:25:19] Your goal really is to say that someone you bring them in for an experience and they want to come back for that experience, whether it’s once a year, whether it’s once a month or at least just when they do wanna want to go Camping that they’re coming back there. And that just to Scott’s point is the interesting thing.
[00:25:34] That’s what the Camping industry has done such a good job of is right this spot in this area. Or I want this cabin here. I want to be by this pool or in this spot. With the glamping aspect, that entire experience or people that are coming back to it, are they going to leave? They’re going, I want to book this again next year for this time with my family or with my wife or with my kids.
[00:25:53] And that, I think that’s going to determine a lot. I think keeping an eye on the amount of people, rebooking is important thing to keep an eye on because that’s what [00:26:00] a lot of campgrounds rely on. Not as much. So right now there’s so many new people, but ultimately you want the, you want people coming back to your park, right?
[00:26:06] That’s the guaranteed way to have your revenue come back is, people rebooking. No, I completely agree. I think it’s vital that we are incredibly intentional about the entire experience as a whole, as opposed to just, this unit looks nice. How many can we squeeze in here?
[00:26:24] I have to say I, especially in the last probably year, I get a few contacts a week from people who don’t want to Campground yet, but want to and they’re always surprised when they say, what are the steps? What do I do? And the first thing I say is you need a property that has the accurate, the appropriate zoning in order to operate this business legally.
[00:26:48] And that’s sometimes can be a big challenge. And, Brandon, I think earlier when you were saying something about, a lot of people come in, maybe with the intention of starting this. That kind of fizzles over time, and maybe [00:27:00] that doesn’t happen for them. I think this is frankly, a big part of that hurdle is often the getting the zoning and that stuff in place.
[00:27:09] I think it’s an important from an industry standpoint and maybe it’s an association tasks that we should be doing better at, but we really need to be communicating with municipalities and counties across the continent about this business and being intentional with them as well about the type of economic diversity and impact we can have.
[00:27:30] So that those zoning changes are not such a mountainous battle to fight to get properties like this off the ground and running and operational. So I that’s something important to me at the association level. I am committed to continuing to do that with our more local officials and things like that.
[00:27:52] Things like shows like this help, the glamping show helps the more people who are championing this will just continue to broaden all of that for sure. [00:28:00] I think that’s a good point, right? Like I think I’m hopeful that, and I firmly come down on the same side that Casey’s on. Like we want to work primarily with campgrounds and places like that.
[00:28:09] But we are turning away. People just like Casey is at the same time. And so I think. Ideally like a perfect goal that comes out of this is the raised awareness from COVID more people who want to get into this space. More people want to start glamping businesses, but maybe that interest translates into more governmental awareness, more regulation, awareness, more willingness of permits to be approved in a quicker, more robust fashion.
[00:28:30] And then that not only helps the glamping businesses become campgrounds, but the campgrounds get easier to approvals and loans and regulations too. And so I think they meet in the middle. Yep. No, I completely agree. I completely agree. We’re seeing on the news. I’ve, I see articles a couple of times a week of non zoned or regulated Campground space being closed or, they’re fighting a battle with their county to stay open and things.
[00:28:58] That’s probably a costly [00:29:00] undertaking. We should avoid those where we can for sure. Got it. I got a question for me. If you had a lot of new parks and your guys’ portfolio where people go in, they buy the land, which is obviously the important that it happened and get into that the bill they realize, of course, it’s way more expensive than they thought it was going to be when there’s a lot more that can go into it.
[00:29:21] Are you finding more new, like new owners are reaching out to you guys more than the existing ones that essentially need to revamp? Where are you seeing the industry going for using services like yours? Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great question. A hundred percent it’s it seems like it’s the majority of it is new ownership.
[00:29:40] And the majority of that new ownership is private sector. Capital fund groups that are getting into the space about, cry three or four years ago. 90% of our business was mom and pop ownership and 10% was capital funds. And that is entirely flipped in the last couple of years.
[00:29:56] And it makes sense in some ways too, because for a mom and pop [00:30:00] to bring in a consultant or a management company, we can help with certain things. But, oftentimes the property that they’re running might not be able to support, management fees. But then also these investment groups have the need to be able to partner with a consultant for further.
[00:30:15] Sometimes it’s written in their bylaws of their funds to be able to have to partner with a management company. And, really we view ourselves as. And the strategic partners more than a service provider our success, their success is our success. And so we focus on them first and foremost.
[00:30:30] So I think that, the new development, Greenfield development that we’re seeing is I think in the last year we’ve opened six or seven brand new shovel properties from ground up which has been very interesting. We’ve got a few more in the queue. And so I think what’s going to be interesting.
[00:30:44] Moving forward is seeing the turn of our industry move from being so mom and pop prevalent, which there, there’s thousands of campgrounds in there. There will always be a majority of mom and pop, but the large, the larger properties that have higher our top line revenue, I [00:31:00] think continue to move towards capital fund groups.
[00:31:04] And I think what we’re really advocating to, to our clients that, and we work with amazing clients, we’re advocating. Okay, make sure that they hold these properties and run these in a way that makes sense for future growth, isn’t it. And provides unique experiences at each location that we don’t turn them into, chains of Fairfield.
[00:31:28] It could be, yeah, exactly. Because our industry with unique locations, unique experiences, like just the uniqueness and difference of each location. And I’d hate for us to lose that industry. So far it seems like everybody’s getting into the space. They know that’s why it’s been so successful.
[00:31:47] So let’s just keep leaning into that. It’s the fundamental of the industry is, we w folks are moving around between all of these parks. We want to offer them different experiences and all of those places to get them [00:32:00] in the door in multiple properties. Yeah. Season. And so I completely agree with Scott.
[00:32:05] I’m seeing the same thing here. I have several the last several members that have joined the association in my province have all been investment group members who purchased campgrounds in the last year and are looking both for management staff or services to help them with operations and also happy to network with other operators.
[00:32:25] I think, they’re happy to keep their eyes open for any more potential deals and things like that. So I completely agree. I’m seeing that same shift up here and I don’t anticipate that really slowing down as long as the industry’s performance. Yeah. And what things do you mean with the minute?
[00:32:42] Scott mentioned this and it’s so important as far as finding some of that niche, or at least just expanding on what your work does and what it does and just playing it. We went to the extent where we were having such a hard time getting quality photos and listings to be able to, basically showcase, [00:33:00] Park’s properties, online coffee book, mine we’re planning on doing photo shoots for them saying, look, you desperately need to showcase the good things that your property and how you talk about style and how you display different site types.
[00:33:17] It, and I don’t necessarily need a photo every single day because some of the sites don’t look great. Some of them don’t work to do for sure. Just getting something out there is getting. Bookings let’s think again, that’s just the overall shift that the camper or should exp, right? You were able to not have that much photos and display of your park in, in, in recent years, but that’s really the expectation now, especially if you want to stay for keep attracting, because the goal is to attract new customers, as well as get the other ones back, because that’s going to drive the price point of each, each night, never want to stop getting new customers. But the best way to do that in some cases is to let them know what you have in and that in some [00:34:00] capacity is so important. And we’ve seen a good shift in that where, even three years ago, we’d look at, it seems like one of the 10 parks actually had a good representation of what was at their park for, with, from a photo standpoint and just an explanation.
[00:34:14] And even. Giving a general creative overview of your park, like what to expect when you come here. We’ve been trying to, you, we, you don’t wanna write it for you cause it’s dark, but then it gives some sort of snack. Hi, should I come there? What is it about that part? That’s good to speak to certain customers.
[00:34:32] We’re seeing a good switch in that too, but it’s still the Camping industry overall, still has a long way to go. There’s still a lot of parts that don’t have that. And that’s why so many new Campground operators feel there’s such a good opportunity because they’re like, geez, there might be eight parks in the area.
[00:34:48] One of them’s online or two of them online. And I can immediately act by putting in just doing some basic things to show still people that I that we exist. So we’re seeing, yeah, it’s [00:35:00] incredible. How many new park owners I’m going to see? I would say maybe out of the 700 or so parks over the last year that we’ve onboarded.
[00:35:09] I would say maybe 150 have been new parks. So it’s crazy. It’s crazy. How many, new parks that, that we’re seeing getting opened right now? I just want to highlight this what he’s talking about specifically and how much of an added benefit this stuff is when you partner with somebody like Camping.
[00:35:29] I think it’s important to note that this is so much more than just reservation software Kemp. Squat offers you a full team of pros who are going to give you tons of advice and resources and perspective that maybe, I was a campground owner for a long time. It’s easy to get tunnel vision when you’re in the midst of a season where your sites are full and you’re busy every day.
[00:35:52] And so you’re not technically thinking about like, how can I harness other sections of the market and how can I access a [00:36:00] different demographic and all of those things at that time, that partnership with. Somebody like campfire is a, bring so much more to the table than just software. I brought your 20 bucks in the mail to touch on what Casey was saying too about images, not just on the reservation system side, but just images across all of your branding across your website, across your social media and stuff like that.
[00:36:25] We encounter a lot of clients. It’s getting better. I find that the group or the properties that are working with management groups tend to have nicer pictures, more pictures, that sort of thing. We still have I joke and people laugh, but we still have clients where, we’ve got pictures that we have to pull from that are like, from a flip phone like Motorola, razor images and, the thing.
[00:36:43] I just don’t people see a price tag on what it costs to have someone come into your park and take pictures. And it’s really not difficult if you have a nice smartphone to take some of your own pictures, but the negative reviews and the people that don’t want to come back and the people that don’t even want to give you a first chance.
[00:36:57] It’s because you’re setting an expectation with the images [00:37:00] that they’re seeing and if your images stick, there’s not anything for them to look forward to. There’s no, there’s nothing enticing them to book. And then the negative reviews that you see you want to have nice pictures, but you also want to have an honest depiction.
[00:37:09] If you only have one nice bath house and everything else is junk, and you only have a few nice Heights, you need to find a nice way to display the reality of your part because the negative reviews you get are because of unmet expectations that you’ve already set before they set foot on your property.
[00:37:25] Yeah, maybe to your point, Angela with that too. Cause you. You guys are right on the frontline with marketing and making sure that we’ve got great content. And I think that it’s not as complicated or as expensive as it sounds like it could be to get those great images. We’ve, I’ll admit up until a couple of years ago.
[00:37:46] We were some of the worst offenders with that. Find some great stock images that look like your park and call it a day. But we’ve really pivoted that in the last year. And we’ve focused first on of. And what the experience is that we’re trying to set at the property, why we want, [00:38:00] how we want guests to experience our locations and how we want them to feel designing the on-sites spaces and physical structures and amenities around that.
[00:38:08] But then also partnering with influencers and there’s ways that you can have someone come and stay at your property for a week and your shoulder season for free, and they’ll exchange, 10 or 20 images that are high quality professional images that you can use for your social media channels.
[00:38:24] But even if you do go for professional shoot, which you should. Maybe a couple thousand dollars, but the, we as an industry, we can really focus on reinventing how we’re approaching marketing from just, focusing on Google ads and Facebook ads, which you need to be there, but really focusing on content generation and not afraid to spend money on that.
[00:38:43] We’ll all benefit as the industry elevates overall, but it’s really not to Angela’s point. It’s really not that difficult and expensive really to get that high quality imagery. We just talk about bay point landing for one second, there was there’s some gorgeous photos at bay 0.1 thing,[00:39:00]
[00:39:02] that’s on my bucket list of properties to visit it. And to Scott’s point too like you said, it is a couple thousand dollars to have someone come in and in the grand scheme of things, the ROI that you’re going to see on that, because you have displayed your property in a really nice.
[00:39:16] A really nice, consistent way. It’ll pay for itself. It really well. And sometimes you just have to, you have to pull the trigger and rip the band-aid off, but pays for itself in a very short amount of time. And one last thought on that too, Angela, and I’m not a marketing guy, but I know enough to be dangerous, but if you focus and spend money on great content, you can really narrow your audience down to the folks that are actually going to book at your site.
[00:39:41] And so your Google and Facebook ad spend is so much more efficient as well. So it almost, in some ways, Not only will make you more money, but can also start your marketing efforts because it can be more narrowed and focused as well. And it also ends up another point to that is [00:40:00] the reviews that you get more consistent review ratings.
[00:40:03] So you’re not getting as many negative reviews because they have, false expectations of what they’re going to see. Yeah it’s a multifaceted thing and, but really simple fix do.
[00:40:14] Yeah. And it’s all just it’s about putting thought into it, and thought and care in the same way that Scott does on the management operation side. And obviously he’s got marketing people on his team to focus on that, but just putting thought and care into all the little things that go into the guest experience and the journey that people take the book with you from the photos like Casey was talking about Scott, and we’ve been talking about discussion to, the copy on your website to the blog posts you’re writing to, we’ve got we’ve got a client that talks and portrays their entire glamping experience from a dog’s perspective.
[00:40:43] And the copy on the website is written from a dog’s perspective. And so it’s, I don’t know if it’s something that obviously should be widespread or wide-scale, but for their park and their theme, it fits and it works for them. And it’s. But the key is that if they’re putting that thought into it, they’re thinking about here’s how I want to theme it.
[00:40:58] Here’s how I want the guests to perceive it. [00:41:00] Here’s how I want it to do. And they’re really like taking the time to create that stuff. And to Scott’s point about even Google ads, all the directions we can take with us. We’ve got clients. Yeah. We’ve got clients again, like we talk about look at Arizona, for example, just cause this is the one that’s popping into the, into my head.
[00:41:15] You narrow your focus and you T you target your Google ads and Facebook ads to people who are looking for places to stay near the city where the Campground is, the further you go out from that, the less narrow your targeting becomes, and you can still get guests as you increase that, but the ROI, the return on investment, the conversions, the all that goes down, because you’re expanding your targeting.
[00:41:36] And and that’s not just with Google ads, with everything you do copy and all that kind of stuff. Kurt, what have you seen from you’ve been quiet over there. Kurt, I feel like, cause we’re talking a little about glamping, but like how do you envision some of these glamping operators as they increase their operations as they become more niche? In some cases working, not with directly the national parks, but working in, I don’t know, coordination with the theming, the [00:42:00] areas that things like that to help maybe amplify or increase the glamping experience at their properties that are near national parks.
[00:42:06] It’s a good question. And it’s outside my purview because I’m really focused inside national parks. And that’s what I mean, like the theming, like if you’re talking about Utah, right? Moab and stuff like that, obviously there’s ways that I think that private parks can tie in the glamping experience at a park in Utah with the theming of.
[00:42:23] And make that kind of a more, I guess that’s where I’m going. Maybe. I don’t know. I think I know I’ll I can speak from local parks here in Alberta. I just finished sitting on an outdoor recreation Roundtable and Alberta is the provincial parks are actively working to expand or enhance their regulatory requirements on outdoor recreation use on the crowns land, crown land properties surrounding immediately surrounding their provincial parks in a way to, Kurt touched on this earlier to [00:43:00] both reduce human impact in those areas and do some more regulatory stuff, but also be more intentional about how visitors are using those spaces in order to cultivate experiences and things too.
[00:43:13] So things like. OHV like ATV use and things like that. They’re putting in regulatory expectations and resources and facilities and things like that to better. I hate to say it control just to mitigate our impacts on those really vital kind of natural ecosystems that frankly can make up a large portion of this province.
[00:43:35] And we have several member, Campground member operators whose properties are either on those lands or directly border them. In the cases where they’re on those lines, they have lease agreements with any Campground privately operated campgrounds there. But it certainly does have the potential to really impact their businesses.
[00:43:54] There are a few, we’ve had the owner of Sundance lodges on this show before quite some time ago, but her [00:44:00] property is on CA in Canon ASCUS, provincial park. And she has the majority of her sites are TPS and outfitter tents. So she’s actively operating a really successful glamping business on provincial public lands, through lease agreements and all of those things.
[00:44:15] I think there’s obvious, there’s great ways to facilitate good partnerships here that, she, as much as she is operating her business, she’s also really passionate about keeping the environment prioritizing the treatment of the park and ensuring that her guests are great stewards of.
[00:44:34] Our natural environment and she’s, in my opinion, the, a great example of the type of person that I think that those parks should be partnering with. She’s not only prioritizing her bottom line, but also that stewardship and I do think it, the Alberta government is actively seeking other partners to do more agreements like that with, so there is, I don’t think we can [00:45:00] compare apples to oranges here.
[00:45:02] We have different dynamics in terms of population densities and those kinds of things, but there is an an active push on the provincial government’s part to expand access to those public lands, to disperse. Some of the traffic that’s really concentrated in places like Banff and cannon ASCUS, other areas of the province that are.
[00:45:24] Incredibly gorgeous and offer those unique experiences that are just not really well-known. And so those private businesses like Sundance lodges can really benefit from those government initiatives that are targeting those things. Sorry, Brian, I feel like that’s a long-winded way of saying those things are starting to happen and are proving to be successful here.
[00:45:47] And so I think as long as it’s, again, I keep saying this word intentional and really focused on not just bottom line and dollars and things like that. I think there’s ways we can Be really successful. Hey [00:46:00] Kara, I think Cara, I guess I’m more cynical than you are. Firstly, what I hear talk about investment companies and, looking into the glamping business and displacing the mom and pop operations.
[00:46:13] And I think, what’s going on in Utah is a perfect example of what we have to watch out for when these companies that have the political clout in the financial clout to, to move on to public lands, fringing national parks and increasing the pressure on those parks. And how much a night do you want to spend to sleep in a tent?
[00:46:35] I see there’s an Airstream model coming towards Zion national park and $300 a night. We’re gonna, price the experience. Out for a lot of folks. Now moving away from Western cynical voice down in Everglades national park, there’s an interesting operation at Flamingo down on the very Southern tip of the park where the concessionaire, because of some [00:47:00] hurricanes that wiped out the lodge there back in 2005, I think it was they’re slowly rebuilding some hard lodging facilities there, which I think are going to open next year.
[00:47:08] But they’ve also dabbled with, glamping. They’ve got some beautiful tents for mango with beds and dressers and lamps and whatnot. But again, you run into, what Scott was saying earlier about, do you want to go to sleep, listening to your neighbor? You have to be a little bit sensitive to how you disperse those glamping operations.
[00:47:28] So as not to ruin the experience. And even that goes beyond tents. I was in summit from cabins where I could hear the couple of next door most of the night, but I do think as the national park service looks towards what the 21st century Camping experience should be. I’d like what parks Canada has done with introducing some glamping options.
[00:47:50] We had a story on that earlier this year and really unique The combinations that they’re offering out there, but I think it has to be done in a sensitive way. It shouldn’t [00:48:00] be listed. We can shoehorn in because that’s where it’s going to ruin the natural habitat and natural resources. And it’s just going to trash the place.
[00:48:11] I couldn’t agree more Curt. I think I know specifically here in Alberta, there’s been up until now a real frankly, a complete limitation on developments of certain types on our public lands. And the intention of this outdoor recreation round table was to start that regulatory conversation process so that the government can begin to assess, I think we can be, they can, their intention is to be focused on ensuring that the right types of partnerships.
[00:48:41] Coming to place in those areas in order to prioritize the things that you’re saying, the experience the you know, equitable access to those public lens for as much of the population as possible. Those kinds of things have to stay at the top of the priority list above a [00:49:00] lot of or above any frankly, private interest.
[00:49:04] When you start talking about an investment companies coming in, you’re getting lose that well, and I think there’s there is going to be, I don’t, I don’t want to speak out of turn, but in my opinion, I don’t see them there being willingness to, to partner with investment firms. I think maybe I’m pipe dreaming, but I do, I have seen applicants.
[00:49:27] They’ve actively got applications for Perks. Open for over a year now. And I haven’t seen them refuse partnerships, based on the relationship, not being, not aligning with their goals or priorities. I think I’m hopeful again. There’s it’s easy to imagine. I agree with you, Kurt.
[00:49:48] It’s easy to imagine that dollars are going to dictate how these decisions get made. And so I think it’s important that we remain strong advocates about how our public [00:50:00] parks should look and how those partnerships should work. The private operations that currently exist there or bordering, there are very reliant on the continued success and longevity of those lens.
[00:50:17] And it’s in their interest as well to not see them reduced to, corporate hotels, arcades and stuff. Yeah, I think there’s a big group of folks who want to see them, stay very focused on the intention, the fundamental intention of our public lands and what they’re there for.
[00:50:38] I hope they’ll stay noisy. We’ll go ahead. Think you wanted to add something. Oh, I’ve a few thoughts, but I think it’s all, I think Kurt and Cara will bring up really good points about how we could how we need to navigate this as an industry and, from a group that works [00:51:00] with a lot of investment money, I think I can say.
[00:51:03] Yeah, there’s groups out there that do it better than others. One thing to keep in mind, and I don’t know how this it’s not perfect, but out of these these, auto camps of the world and others are going into existing properties, existing camp grounds that, had more RVs on them than the density that they’re being redeveloped into.
[00:51:23] And I’m curious to know, how those groups can partner with the national park system and the local community to like, let’s not forget it’s not just the national park system, but how we can help benefit those local communities through tax dollars and community outreach and ways to be a good neighbor by allowing our guests to connect to nature, to connect to the national parks that they’re going to visit in a different way than they would even in an RV.
[00:51:48] That was the. Point of the property that, that they’re redeveloping or, another, five story hotel that’s going up in town. So I think there’s a way that the glamping and outdoor hospitality industry [00:52:00] be very good stewards. I just don’t think we know exactly how yet. So I think we have to take small short, intentional steps.
[00:52:11] Yeah. And that’s the thing, that’s the point of opening up? Yeah. Oh, that’s the point of opening up this conversation. That’s why I invited Kurt on the show and I want him to be a regular guest because prompting enforcing these discussions that kind of make people uncomfortable. They’re not sure where to start is the way that we make progress.
[00:52:25] And so there’s so many nuances involved in this from the basic of what I said, partnering and what we’re talking about with Scott, to the things that Cara talked about, like the concessionaires and the businesses that are actually within national parks that have a deeper partnership with them.
[00:52:39] I went up to Jasper national park here in. A week and a half ago or something like that. And we stayed at a beautiful place called pine bungalows. That was a little tiny lodge. They had a little, a couple hotel rooms, but for the most part, it was standalone cabins that were right by the river.
[00:52:53] And they were on like, not near, they were in the national park. And so as we expanded to glamping and Campground is try [00:53:00] to innovate and create more partnerships, both with our local community like Scott was saying, but also with these national parks, there’s ways that these can be intertwined in a more thoughtful way than just money or just investment groups or just whatever.
[00:53:13] Yeah. I agree. I think the so much of our potential market is enters the Camping kind of realm and world. By experiencing those public lands and those public spaces. And so whether private operators like it or not, we are very reliant on their longevity and success. And embracing that and seeing where we all fit together in this puzzle as a big picture is incredibly vital.
[00:53:44] I. Like I said, we have several operators here specifically in Alberta, but I’m sure across Canada who can attest to, the success of their business being completely reliant on the success of the park. And [00:54:00] so the interest from our, from those, from the government to not only make those parks continue to make those parks amazing, we’re seeing tons of financial investment in Campground spaces to add RV connections and things like that.
[00:54:14] But then we’re also seeing, like I said before directive to really start to harness some of the other areas in the province to help disperse some of the traffic from the really popular spots like Banff and Jasper and whatnot. And, I’m confident that’s happening across the.
[00:54:33] Yeah, and I definitely want to continue this discussion and we can’t. I just want to bring Scott in one more time. Cause we did tell him we were only going to take an hour of his time and his life here at the show. So feel free to drop off anytime you want. But just before you leave, if you have to go here, just tell us what are you looking forward to at this glamping show?
[00:54:48] What’s coming up for you. What are you excited about as you continue the show? Yeah. Yeah. What’s, I think as a company, we have been trending towards, really understanding the need to [00:55:00] create the why create, why our guests are coming and why they’re coming to our locations and how we can really create those experiences.
[00:55:09] And it sounds buzzworthy to say, things like experiential hospitality, but as a company we’re doubling down in that, and we’ve hired some really high powered people that have designed experience stores for Nike and that sort of thing of how guests should be using spaces and how they should be feeling in those spaces.
[00:55:27] And I think. I’m really excited about that direction that we’re taking as a company. And that I think I see our industry moving towards is really focusing on how our guests feel, not just providing sites and the clubhouse of the pool and an affordable rate and really what that means and how we can improve as an industry and grows in industry.
[00:55:46] That’s what I think I’m most excited about this. I also love seeing the innovation of, again, you’ve got all these structures back here and that’s just a small sampling of them. There are all sorts of things that we’re seeing that I think how practical they [00:56:00] are in in in in our line of work from an operating standpoint and how well the up might be a question, but I love the ingenuity of our industry and how we’re constantly reinventing.
[00:56:09] So that’s what I’m most excited about seeing here. And I think the direction that the industry is going. Awesome. If you, again, feel free to stay with us, Scott, but if you need to jump off, please, I know you were at the show and you’ve got all kinds of other commitments and things to do there.
[00:56:23] But yeah, I think we’re at an hour and five minutes here. My phone’s going off. Cause people that I was only gonna be available for an hour or two are gone for an hour. Is there anything else that we want to cover, wrap up, talk about glamping care or anything else that you can think of?
[00:56:34] No, I think it was a great show touched on lots of stuff. So thankful to everybody for joining us. I know Casey had to drop off. Thanks. Appreciate Casey for joining us. Sorry. We miss Randy and mark cap and Susan I look forward to the next big group chat at the beginning of November 3rd.
[00:56:53] Yeah, we’ll have everybody back on on November 3rd and we’ll have some of those people that we missed, hopefully as well. It was Sandy Ellingson. She was from the balloon [00:57:00] Fiesta. Just had some trouble getting on. She emailed me and stuff like that. So that’s expected. We’re traveling, things happen, stuff like that.
[00:57:05] I know Randy will be back joining us next month. And obviously we’ll have Scott and Kurt back with us. Casey. Darryle is here to you was super quiet. I don’t think he said a word, the whole show. But you gotta, we’re gonna break Darryle out of his shell and make them a little less shy as the weeks go on.
[00:57:17] But yeah there’s so many cool things that Darryle has seen and covered for glamping and stuff like that on Modern Campground too. It’s a worldwide only growing phenomenon, so I’m sure we’ll have more shows on that and talk about more than that. So Kurt, any last thoughts? I think it’s really interesting topic.
[00:57:32] Obviously there’s a lot of people want to get to the outdoors. The question is whether it’s sustainable. There was. The big rush for the RV vehicles the past year or so. And a lot of insiders told me that you’re going to see a lot of gently used RVs for sale coming up in the coming year. So it’ll be interesting to see whether those sales hold up and turn into full-time year round RV enthusiasts, and the same thing with the national parks.
[00:57:55] There’s been a lot of crowding out there. And is it just a a blip because of COVID [00:58:00] or, are ESE year round, more and more visitors don’t want international parks and will they become national park advocates? Yep. Absolutely agreed to seeing how that takes shape and all kinds of discussions that we’re going to have from it.
[00:58:12] So appreciate you guys joining us as a reminder. If you’re watching this live here, you’ve already seen the show and you don’t need to pay attention to what I’m saying now, but if you haven’t watched this live you can go check out us on our podcast will be available on Spotify, Google, apple podcasts, all those kinds of places.
[00:58:24] Afterwards, you can listen to us on MC Fireside Chats, as well as all the backstory episodes. And we will see you next week. I think we’re going to talk with Christine Taylor from town law firm, and a couple other guests. We’re going to just dive into this potential vaccine mandate that might be coming across the United States, Canada, things like that.
[00:58:42] It’s already here in Canada, but how that might impact Campground and park owners, specifically state by state jurisdiction by jurisdiction, what they need to look at, how they can work with employees and things like that. As far as I want. Colleagues to be vaccinated and unvaccinated and all kinds of crazy issues that we can dive into there.
[00:58:59] So [00:59:00] looking forward to a good discussion next week and really appreciate you all. Scott, Kurt Darrow, Angela Cara, all joining us Casey, who had to drop off early and we will see you next week for another good show.